protected class...what should I do

[revert79]

*edited*
no, I'm not a troll.  I'm just somebody who doesn't want to lose their job, maybe some of you can understand that perspective.  I know I'm grasping at straws but seriously things are scary right now.

I hate that people on this forum are so unwilling to be supportive and kind, especially in this horrible time.  wtf.  I liked the CHE forum way better.

[writingprof]

Friends, do we have a troll among us?  Surely this can't be real.

On the off chance that it is, here goes.  Age-discrimination laws do not protect people who are over forty from being fired.  Civil-rights laws do not protect Muslims from being fired.  In both cases, they protect you from being fired for that reason, if you can prove it.

And, no, it is not possible to claim

the possible protection that being Muslim might offer in a pinch

without signaling that you are

expecting to be an exception in some way. 

[revert79]

Okay, thanks for the mean and unpleasant reply.  Good bye.

يحميك الله

[ciao_yall]

If you are over 40 and Muslim, can you document/note times that...

• Negative/discriminatory comments were made about your status? ("Another holiday, what is up with you people?")
• You demonstrated work that was equal or comparable to your peers' work? (Publications, teaching evals)
• You were treated differently from your peers because of your status? (Yes, Joe Steinberg got an F from another professor but that was earned. You are Muslim and don't like Jews, which is why you failed him, so we are going to reverse his grade.)
• Side comments that seem unnecessary. (Etc Etc Etc)

[revert79]

all right, that is interesting enough.  I have had to listen to "comments" about Muslims from colleagues, but not directed toward myself as they didn't realize I am part of that group.  They were actually talking about workers in another department.  So I don't think it really counts, although it was not a fun experience...in fact this is one of the reasons I have been under the radar w/ my colleagues.

again, I am one of the many, many professionals in academia who is perhaps about to be laid off, furloughed, or otherwise eliminated.  Things are about to get extremely bad, even for the lucky.  if I seem naive...I think I am born-again naive in the face of global meltdown.  This is really messing with my sense of priorities, structure, and purpose.

I never thought that I could or should keep my job just because of my religious affiliation; it was more like I thought they would maybe give it one extra second's worth of thought before throwing it in the burn pile.  Which might be better than nothing.

[mahagonny]

all right, that is interesting enough.  I have had to listen to "comments" about Muslims from colleagues, but not directed toward myself as they didn't realize I am part of that group.  They were actually talking about workers in another department.  So I don't think it really counts, although it was not a fun experience...in fact this is one of the reasons I have been under the radar w/ my colleagues.

That might count. Our faculty handbook requires you to be collegial. It doesn't specify what that means. Does it mean you can't have a backbiting conversation about someone who's not present? I don't see how academia could be the same without it. But it could mean that.

[mamselle]

*edited*
no, I'm not a troll.  I'm just somebody who doesn't want to lose their job, maybe some of you can understand that perspective.  I know I'm grasping at straws but seriously things are scary right now.

I hate that people on this forum are so unwilling to be supportive and kind, especially in this horrible time.  wtf.  I liked the CHE forum way better.

I'm sorry you don't feel supported here. The CHE forum had some of it's own issues, but I think if anything, this reboot has let go of some of the tensions and provided outlets (like the "ignore" opt-out) for others.

But if you don't feel supported, you don't.

I work in an interfaith/interracial/inter-lots-of-other-things setting, and even among folks who should know better, and usually do, one heard really gauche, unfortunate, even (one hopes, unintentionally) unkindvthings about others which should never have been said.

And those things shouldn't happen, either.

What would support look like to you?

M.

[revert79]

*edited*
no, I'm not a troll.  I'm just somebody who doesn't want to lose their job, maybe some of you can understand that perspective.  I know I'm grasping at straws but seriously things are scary right now.

I hate that people on this forum are so unwilling to be supportive and kind, especially in this horrible time.  wtf.  I liked the CHE forum way better.

I'm sorry you don't feel supported here. The CHE forum had some of it's own issues, but I think if anything, this reboot has let go of some of the tensions and provided outlets (like the "ignore" opt-out) for others.

But if you don't feel supported, you don't.

I work in an interfaith/interracial/inter-lots-of-other-things setting, and even among folks who should know better, and usually do, one heard really gauche, unfortunate, even (one hopes, unintentionally) unkindvthings about others which should never have been said.

And those things shouldn't happen, either.

What would support look like to you?

M.

It seems totally automatic for "community members" here to try to quickly think of a mean joke when they respond to a post (seemingly any post of any kind), and to accuse others of being trolls...it seems like a reflex and it is disappointing, boring, and lame. 

If I could come to this forum to honestly post a serious question, even if the question is a little dumb which my question admittedly was, and not get laughingly snapped at by someone who thinks they can demonstrate cleverness in this way, that would be support.  However, it is not like that.  This is a kind cleverness-demo tryout page for aging people who behave like Greg from "Diary of a Wimpy Kid" when the mask of anonymity is safely in place.  It is like middle school here.  It is not impressive or interesting to grown-ups.  I wish I could find another academia forum where this mean-spirited posturing didn't seem so entertaining to a few pushy frequent posters.

It's depressing and pointless; there is very little dialogue other than individuals who would be happy in a mirrored echo chamber.  And it's really a pity, since higher ed is in a very bad way, and it would be nice to know there was a place one could go to get some actual insight in this freakish time.  I'll just DM you next time because you are always supportive, creative, and non-judgemental.

thanks

[revert79]

plus, I remember the CHE forum as a place where you could look at past threads for info about current problems or situations.  Here, you have to wade through endless "egads, does my little eye spy a troll, or simply a human fool?!?" style comments, and as a result very little helpful advice ends up surfacing for future readers.  I liked the archive quality of the old forum. I don't feel like this forum is a place where people can learn things.

Like look at this thread, it has been rendered worthless because it got derailed asap.  Although I do think a couple of the subsequent points were good.  What if somebody else had the same question that I had?  Now they have to read this instead!  Sorry, friend!

[mahagonny]

plus, I remember the CHE forum as a place where you could look at past threads for info about current problems or situations.  Here, you have to wade through endless "egads, does my little eye spy a troll, or simply a human fool?!?" style comments, and as a result very little helpful advice ends up surfacing for future readers.  I liked the archive quality of the old forum. I don't feel like this forum is a place where people can learn things.

Like look at this thread, it has been rendered worthless because it got derailed asap.  Although I do think a couple of the subsequent points were good.  What if somebody else had the same question that I had?  Now they have to read this instead!  Sorry, friend!

It seems that this thread has spilled over from some other discussion that I haven't seen. Regardless, I can tell you this, generally: the way the forum works and the way academia works is that a statement often gets assessed according to the reputation of the speaker, and not the actual pertinent facts & arguments put forth. I suppose that's a consequence of the presence of a hierarchy that needs constant fortifying. This may be relevant to your grievance or not. I can't say.
edit:  because you are delving into the question 'what is  a troll."

[mamselle]

Also, sorry to say, there are a handful of folks who do exactly what you describe and have been called out for it, but they appear to be unrepentant.

Most often, a real situation that does not fit within their world view prompts it: it's a defensive mechanism for denial of realities beyond their ken, which would make them, like the Grinch, probably, have to widen their hearts to admit (pun intended).

They, to my mind, are the real trolls.

But if we could go ahead and discuss the question at hand instead of letting them derail the honest conversation we could be having, we can denature their power.

So I propose we ignore the whole issue of trolldom, sideline them by refusing to say another thing about it.

Here, I'll draw a line: No troll-calling trolls beyond this point:

-------------((gets out magic fora-chalk))-----------‐-
                ....Beyond here be no trolls....
                                 DNFTT

Now, then.

I'm coming into this discussion from a place of incomplete knowledge.

It sounds as if you're worried about your job--and do I recall you just recently got there, a year or so ago?

So for all kinds of reasons, that's a reasonable worry.

The part I seem to be unclear about is that it sounds like you're afraid your adherence to/identification with a faith community that is only slightly represented where you are could be contributing to that issue.

And, sad to say, in some parts of this country, even places right next-door to other places, that's also an honest, reality-based fear.

I'm sorry for that, as well. We stand to lose so much by narrow-mindedness and thin-souled bigotry.

The part I'm unclear about is that it sounds like you were looking into any legal situations that might be useful in helping you stay in your position--but I don't recall knowing it had been directly threatened on any grounds--has it?

I also think I recall you were considering applying elsewhere, but I don't recall what you decided or did about that.

I can go back and look at some earlier threads for context (ForaResearch R Us!) but all I see at the head of this thread, where I first looked, is an OP that appears to start in the middle of the conversation...was something deleted?

Clarification about those might help, I have two straight-through teaching days upcoming, so might not get to look up stuff until Saturday, but if you could add a little background, that would help: has someone at work said something direct about your job in particular?

Sadly, though, too, if you are just recently arrived, you're probably right to assess your vulnerability to a layoff as high, and (having gone through one--in which they had the temerity to send me a note stating the ages (unnamed) of all those laid-off vs. those retained, to show that my age category was not overly represented!) the legal folks are usually more aware of their vulnerabilities, and more likely to cover them pre-emptively, than you'd like to think.

I want to say it might have been InfoPri who had some experience/background in this area--another reason to mourn her loss--and did indeed comment on the old forum, so a search by just spot-reading through her posting history might give you some perspective on the subject.

My recollection is that (as in my case, for age) being membered in a particular class in and of itself may not render protection: the note they sent me made it clear that to sue for job retention, I'd have had to show that they'd dismissed a disproportionate number of folks of my age category, not just me (there were in fact only two or three of us in that range, it was a bought-out start-up and the rest were all young computer folks, so 1/3 wouldn't have been out of line).

In my case, the half-pay was ok because it gave me time to do research and present at two conferences and teach a class abroad that I'd already booked and paid for; I had to live lean for the rest of that year, but I was actually glad for the lay-off (and had become accustomed to them; in several settings, the larger carousel of stockholder-pleasing purges has become a part of the career itself. People get re-shuffled, you become your former boss's boss at one place, they go back to supervising you at the next...) but of course the pay was semi-decent so half of it was still just do-able.

But that's just about me, in the past, for perspective.

You're rightly worried about your situation now.

Can you say a bit more?

M.

[polly_mer]

If I remember your history correctly, revert79, then I would be very, very worried about my job in your situation.  As mamselle notes, you are a new hire in a non-faculty position that relies heavily on physical presence of others on campus.  Your budget was small enough you worried about attending one conference that was directly related to your current job and was of reasonable cost as conferences go.

All of that screams "job ready to be furloughed or cut and then refilled at some future time if the institution is still open and still wants that job after extensive review".  Being in a protected class or even tenured means nothing if the budget is tight enough that the institution is cutting many jobs and even whole departments.  No one will be worried at all about mere accusations of discrimination when it's dozens of jobs on the chopping block instead of one or two people who might be in specific categories.  Were I the decision maker, I wouldn't even be worried about lawsuits when the evidence of cutting across the board is so large.

In your shoes, I'd be looking for what else is available as jobs in the area and brushing up on what the current unemployment process is.  The accusations of trolls or even less-than-supportive discussions here is the least of your problems at this point.  Go start looking for jobs and not adjunct jobs because those, too, will be cut for the fall in many places.

[marshwiggle]

I never thought that I could or should keep my job just because of my religious affiliation; it was more like I thought they would maybe give it one extra second's worth of thought before throwing it in the burn pile.  Which might be better than nothing.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I'm not sure how to interpret the section above. Should religious affiliation count or shouldn't it? Hring (and firing) decisions are usually not going to be determined by "one extra second's worth of thought" (and if they are, they shouldn't be.)

FWIW, I've been the recipient of my share of snark on *here, (and of course some might be deserved), but I attempt (not always successfully) to avoid responding in kind. However, the honest truth is that many of the discussions we have here would be impossible in normal social settings. (For instance, I'm sure that if this were happening in person, and you expressed yourself as above, I would remain absolutely silent. In our society, to express anyhting short of 100% agreement with someone else is to be labelled "a hater".)


(*Search for "Marshy", or "Marshburger" and so on.)

[mamselle]

In line with Polly's statement, it struck me that your best totem animal right now might be the squirrel in fall.

I'd think through all my upcoming bare-bones expenses for the next 6-8-10 months, see if I can stash away as much as possible against them, and then add one thing, say your art equipment, that you'll allow tiny splurges on, where necessary, to prep your next show. (Galleries near me are continuing to mount shows and give virtual tours online.)

Because the question under your question might be, "Is there any way to control the outcomes in your current situation?" and the answer, nearly always, has to be, "Sorry, but...no. You can't control others and you can't control situations. You can only control yourself in the situation."

But what you can do is prepare for the imaginable scenarios you may have to face, and put yourself in the best possible position for facing them.

I'd also take a moment, while it's still yours, to list all the things you've valued about this job. They will guide you, show you what to look for next if that becomes the necessity--or let you know what to build on for however long it remains yours.

Gratitude is the best preparation for potential loss, and all of us, right now, owe each other the compassion of understanding because all of us face potential loss.

M.

[Cheerful]

If you don't like what someone posts, scroll on by to the next post.  You need not feel personally offended or close down a thread because you don't like a few replies.

Many have likely felt offended on a thread or two here.  We're all human, with different experiences, views, and communication styles.

Stress and tension are high for many now so I understand the sensitivity.  Remember, it's anonymous people on a message board.  Scroll on by.