protected class...what should I do

[marshwiggle]

The thing I wish it was just doesn't exist.

I do feel like you have given me very good advice, and I'm grateful for it.  This just isn't the place for me.

I'm honestly curious what would have been the way you wish this thread would have gone. If it had been everyone saying "Sure, go ahead!" would that have been helpful?

Even (especially??) the people who annoy me force me to consider ways of looking at things that I wouldn't have (and often wouldn't have wanted to) otherwise. But that's a big part of what I value. If everyone here agreed with me I'd be bored to tears.

[apl68]

I never thought you specifically thought anything in particular, I just personally got fed up with what I see as less debate than snipping and groaning in a place where things could be more, to my mind, productive or generous.  but that was my very own response...it is what it is.  not assigning thoughts or feeling to anybody else.  you're right, I wasn't really paying attention.  If everyone else is happy and feels like this is working for them, then that's what this forum is.  The thing I wish it was just doesn't exist.

I do feel like you have given me very good advice, and I'm grateful for it.  This just isn't the place for me.

Sorry you feel that way.  I understand the frustration.  Threads don't always run in helpful directions, and there are some posts--like the very first response to your query--that are truly uncalled-for.  I'm glad you were able to make yourself persist with this thread until you got to the worthwhile advice, even after that ugly experience.

To me, that persistence is just the price paid for getting to the nuggets of goodness in this--or any, really--message board.  I don't really need the advice or information here, since I bailed out of academia long ago, but I like to keep up with what's going on in the academic world.  The information and conversations here help me to do that.  They're valuable enough to me that I'm willing to wade through a good bit of less-than-edifying stuff to get to them.  Having to separate the wheat from the chaff is just a part of dealing with most things--and people--in this world.

[writingprof]

I do feel like you have given me very good advice, and I'm grateful for it.  This just isn't the place for me. 

"Goodbye, cruel Fora!"

But, seriously, before you go, I think we should all play a game based on your original premise and Risenanew's gauche declaration that she has greater job security than an equally well-performing white man.  It will be fun.  Here goes.

An academic department has to fire someone. Its faculty are a white Muslim, an Arab Muslim, a black lesbian, and a transgender person over the age of forty. Who should get the most political protection? Who should get the least? Why?

[mahagonny]

I have a nice idea for all of you who love to bicker back and forth, to each other, in endless self-referential circles that literally nobody else cares about: maybe you should set up a private place to do this.  Since this is purported to be a forum for asking specific questions related to professional life in academia, some of your points might (rarely) be on-topic but for the most part it's just noise.  Nobody cares about you one way or another, nobody hates you or likes you or anything with judgement or interest attached.  You are like jackhammers or air compressors outside one's window, making meaningless but distracting sound when one is trying to think.  And if this activity is actually interesting to a few people, please go away and set up a private Facebook bicker-fest page for yourselves.

Not my experience. In real life there are administrators who will try to cajole, persuade, or scare (or all three) you not to organize to get job security opportunities, and having failed, will hate you for going through with it. If some of them aren't present here, I'd be amazed.
They don't hate you because you're white, non-white, Muslim, trans or anything about you. They hate the fact that you're a person with needs.

I never thought you specifically thought anything in particular, I just personally got fed up with what I see as less debate than snipping and groaning in a place where things could be more, to my mind, productive or generous.  but that was my very own response...it is what it is.  not assigning thoughts or feeling to anybody else.  you're right, I wasn't really paying attention.  If everyone else is happy and feels like this is working for them, then that's what this forum is.  The thing I wish it was just doesn't exist.

I do feel like you have given me very good advice, and I'm grateful for it.  This just isn't the place for me.

Sorry you feel that way.  I understand the frustration.  Threads don't always run in helpful directions, and there are some posts--like the very first response to your query--that are truly uncalled-for.  I'm glad you were able to make yourself persist with this thread until you got to the worthwhile advice, even after that ugly experience.

I don't see anything out-of-bounds in writingprof's first reply. Incensed maybe, but then again what he was responding to had been edited so I don't know what it was.

So theoretically, I (as a Muslim minority woman) have a slightly higher chance of holding onto my full-time tenure track position than, say, a white male professor in my same position who could also lose his job due to budget cuts.

Well, that's it. I'm voting for Trump.

And that's how it happens. And do you know, as clear as this example is, it will mean nothing to a lot of people.

To me, that persistence is just the price paid for getting to the nuggets of goodness in this--or any, really--message board.  I don't really need the advice or information here, since I bailed out of academia long ago, but I like to keep up with what's going on in the academic world. The information and conversations here help me to do that.  They're valuable enough to me that I'm willing to wade through a good bit of less-than-edifying stuff to get to them.  Having to separate the wheat from the chaff is just a part of dealing with most things--and people--in this world.

And to give your critique on the commentary contributed by people who are currently doing the educating.

But, seriously, before you go, I think we should all play a game based on your original premise and Risenanew's gauche declaration that she has greater job security than an equally well-performing white man.

But the advantage is real enough isn't? Anything inaccurate there?

[apostrophe]

I'm sorry but what is happening here? Are threads no longer moderated?

[dr_codex]

I'm sorry but what is happening here? Are threads no longer moderated?

They are moderated. That's why we are not being flooded with spam.

Egregious posts can be flagged for the mods. Obviously commercial stuff, obviously hateful stuff, malware and the like, will be taken down.

But there's no will to police speech, thoughts, thread etiquette and the like on the part of the mods. That's kind of a collective thing, and an evolving one.

Personally, I don't love the constant threadjacking, the hobby-horse fixations, and the incessant feuding of a few people across any number of threads. But I'm not going to moderate, in any fashion, and I'm not going to spend all my hours trying to yoke people back on topic. I have hundreds of students who pay my salary who need that kind of attention. It ain't going here.

I appreciate all the work of the mods, even when -- maybe especially when -- I don't love the conversations.

[mamselle]

Yes, the rectangular firing squad will soon do what one individual poster did to the old forum if they don't let up soon.

I follow a thread until they take over.

Then I move on.

M.

[apostrophe]

Yes, the rectangular firing squad will soon do what one individual poster did to the old forum if they don't let up soon.

I follow a thread until they take over.

Then I move on.

M.

Right. But I think we might be talking about two different things. I try to skip annoying posts and stop reading most threads when they boil down to the same old whatever.

Here's what I'm about. On the old fora I saw an "un-flagged" post on a thread I was following get changed by a moderator because someone complained about language. I thought it was unnecessary. I also recall Prytania complaining about the moderation. So while I do find the idea that the community polices things generally preferable to interventions from on high, if the idea is that individual members must either openly counter or flag posters who, say, insinuate that someone converted to Islam to score "diversity points", I don't see that as much of a policy.

But here I am doing it: writingprof, knock it off. Though I try to read your posts as satire, this time it failed.

I do appreciate the work done to get rid of spam and advertising. Clearly it is mostly thankless as I complained without acknowledging it.

[spork]

[. . . ]

An academic department has to fire someone. Its faculty are a white Muslim, an Arab Muslim, a black lesbian, and a transgender person over the age of forty. Who should get the most political protection? Who should get the least? Why?

I resemble these remarks!

[writingprof]

So while I do find the idea that the community polices things generally preferable to interventions from on high, if the idea is that individual members must either openly counter or flag posters who, say, insinuate that someone converted to Islam to score "diversity points", I don't see that as much of a policy.

But here I am doing it: writingprof, knock it off. Though I try to read your posts as satire, this time it failed.

Apostrophe, we get it. You're woke. However, this thread has examined the intersections of religion, law, and culture from the beginning. No one hijacked it. It's an inherently political matter, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out the absurdities in the OP's position.

[apostrophe]

So while I do find the idea that the community polices things generally preferable to interventions from on high, if the idea is that individual members must either openly counter or flag posters who, say, insinuate that someone converted to Islam to score "diversity points", I don't see that as much of a policy.

But here I am doing it: writingprof, knock it off. Though I try to read your posts as satire, this time it failed.

Apostrophe, we get it. You're woke. However, this thread has examined the intersections of religion, law, and culture from the beginning. No one hijacked it. It's an inherently political matter, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out the absurdities in the OP's position.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't accusing anyone of highjacking, which is what my response to Mamselle's points was meant to clarify. I was calling out your bigoted post.

[mahagonny]

So while I do find the idea that the community polices things generally preferable to interventions from on high, if the idea is that individual members must either openly counter or flag posters who, say, insinuate that someone converted to Islam to score "diversity points", I don't see that as much of a policy.

But here I am doing it: writingprof, knock it off. Though I try to read your posts as satire, this time it failed.

Apostrophe, we get it. You're woke. However, this thread has examined the intersections of religion, law, and culture from the beginning. No one hijacked it. It's an inherently political matter, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out the absurdities in the OP's position.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't accusing anyone of highjacking, which is what my response to Mamselle's points was meant to clarify. I was calling out your bigoted post.

I hope you lose your job to someone who's got more points on the diversity hiring scale than you.

How about calling out ad hominem positions?

So when it's time to discuss diversity initiatives in hiring and terminating, what kind of discussions do you envision? Why even have discussions at all if there are not multiple points of view?

[writingprof]

I was calling out your bigoted post.

Ah, yes, my "bigotry": I hate white people who are secretly Muslims. It's a bias that takes some investigative work, but I'm up to the challenge.

[marshwiggle]

I wasn't accusing anyone of highjacking, which is what my response to Mamselle's points was meant to clarify. I was calling out your bigoted post.

Apostrophe, here is the post I believe you're referring to:

OP, are you white?  I strongly suspect so, but please pardon me if I'm mistaken.  The reason I suspected you of trollery is that a white person converting to Islam in order to get the diversity points and victim status is the reductio ad absurdum of identity politics.  In other words, your post reads like something I would have written here to annoy the Elizabeth Warren crowd.

I have highlighted the section in question.

Wrtingprof did not accuse the poster of "converting to Islam in order to get the diversity points and victim status"; he pointed out the absurdity of a society where that would be potentially worthwhile. If anything was insinuated, it was the irony of the poster's question.

[polly_mer]

I'm sorry but what is happening here? Are threads no longer moderated?

Posts are moderated only by report at the moment.  We approve accounts and first posts to cut way down on the spam that truly does nothing to further any discussions.  That's why I posted https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=132.msg25146#msg25146  and https://thefora.org/index.php?topic=132.msg25213#msg25213 recently.

If the community at large wants to enforce a specific norm, then create the paper trail trying to establish those norms and we'll see if enough of the regulars truly want any particular norm enforced enough that we have to add it as a rule.  Then, people have to continue to report it as they see it to get moderation that will edit/delete posts.

The 3-5 of moderators/administrators are volunteers with full-time-or-more jobs elsewhere.  This is a labor of love because we each individually believe the discussions are valuable.

In this particular instance on this particular thread, there is no way that I would moderate the posts that you have indicated as problematic, apostrophe.  In this one instance, my personal views align much more strongly with those of mahagonny and writingprof than yours.