Students consistently causing same problems in all the courses they have taken

[research_prof]

Hi folks,

there are some students that have taken multiple courses I teach. I have noticed that they keep causing the same issues in every single course of mine they have taken. Some of them would consistently complain every single time they will not get full points for a project or an exam. Others would come up with exactly the same (silly) excuses to request make-up exams and/or project deadline extensions. Others will be consistently rude to TAs when there is a course policy they do not like.

I am a relatively "fresh" professor and this is the first time I have seen such a thing happening... Exactly the same students will cause exactly the same "problems" every semester. I am not sure how to handle that or whether I should let my department know somehow. Is that happening only to me or others have observed similar trends?

Thanks!

[Hegemony]

Well, it makes sense — people have the same personalities, whatever they do.  You probably have your particular quirks too (you put off grading, or spend too much time on grading, or respond grouchily to being interrupted in a lecture, or whatever), and you probably do those things in all your classes too, not just one of them.

The answer is simply to respond however you would if you saw these traits for the first time. If they ask for silly extensions, just reiterate your policy. If they complain about points on quizzes, just reiterate your policy. They do the same thing over and over; you can have the same response over and over too. The important thing is not to take their continuing behavior personally.  They are not persisting because they don't respect you.  These habits are just their modus operandi in the world.

[marshwiggle]

The answer is simply to respond however you would if you saw these traits for the first time. If they ask for silly extensions, just reiterate your policy. If they complain about points on quizzes, just reiterate your policy. They do the same thing over and over; you can have the same response over and over too. The important thing is not to take their continuing behavior personally.  They are not persisting because they don't respect you.  These habits are just their modus operandi in the world.

And for the future, if you can tweak your policies to more clearly rule out some of these things, do so.

[mamselle]

Agree.

Broadening it a bit...They may also be exhibiting "learned behaviors" that worked for them at home, in high school (or kindergarten) or elsewhere. The decay of such behaviors requires a combination of selective opposition, non-reinforcement, and puzzled looks (as in, "why would you do or say THAT?") for extinction over time.

If they've come to identify with the behavior, or some consistent result of it, that's harder: if they've grown accustomed to generating a certain responsive exasperation, on which they build to form a chip-on-the-shoulder dismissal of all instruction as "mean,," say--it's more complicated.

But even that can be addressed by patient bafflement to a degree.

If after awhile you make it clear that it's nothing to you, but they're behaving nonsensically, you might get them to at least re-think their options and broaden their repertoire of approaches to things they view as oppressive--like assignments with due dates, say.

M.

[backatit]

I did have one student (in 15 years, so that's actually not too bad) who was consistently just an awful communicator in an online course - they were rude, constantly ascribed the worst possible motives to their fellows, just were a true pain to deal with. I ended up noting their behavior: "hey, A, I noticed that both semesters you've been having some issues with communication, and I'm seeing a pattern. We have to do something to fix it because you're skirting with rules of student conduct as defined in my syllabus "link to syllabus policy for online conduct to remind them"" and then I gave them some coping strategies for online communication, like waiting for a "cooling off" period before responding, using collaborative language, etc. I did see some improvement from that. They were still difficult, but we got through the semester without further incident. They did confide in me that they had extreme anxiety and it tended to come out in believing that people were "picking on them" and that the online course environment seemed to exacerbate that, so we got them hooked up with some counseling that did seem to also help a bit. They didn't turn into a model of great behavior, and they were worse in a couple of other professors' classes (they ended up filing complaints against some of my colleagues for "bullying") but at least they told our chair that they learned something (obviously not enough) in my class. It was exhausting though!

So you have my sympathies. There are some students that I see their names on my roster and I cringe. Students tend to take me for more than one semester and I work well with the majority of them, and the nice thing is that unlike the workplace, they do eventually tend to leave, to be replaced by entirely NEW issues!

[research_prof]

Thank you, guys. All your advice is great. I understand that someone's personality is tough to change, so I do not take what students do/say personally. The event that was "just too much to process" happened yesterday. I have a student that consistently wants to complain about all the projects and exams he does not get a perfect score. And despite the fact that I have regular office hours every week, as well as my 2 TAs have regular office hours every week (so we are talking about 6h that we are available to students every week), this student would send me an email to arrange a separate meeting saying every single time that he has been busy during our office hours. Then, he will come to my office and start complaining about his grade. Yesterday, things went bad, since he started arguing with me (I kept my cool while he was yelling). Funny thing is that this pattern (asking for a separate meeting every time he does not get a perfect score, saying that he is busy during all the scheduled office hours during the week, coming to my office and complaining) was repeated last semester too.

I am currently debating whether I should report him to my department/university. I feel that if he yells at people like that on a regular basis in his life, others will be terrified by his behavior, since it definitely creates a hostile environment.

[San Joaquin]

You may want to check in with a senior colleague about how your department has managed these things so you can provide the kind of consistent response that is most likely to change behavior.  If you feel a student is at risk for escalating issues, that is something to share with your early alert team and your chair.  Be sure to document in emails or notes the behaviors at issue with specific instances and dates, and hopefully you will never need to produce them.

[pepsi_alum]

Lots of good advice in this thread. I would add that the students behavior Research_Prof describes is *not* normal at U.S. universities even for students who are upset about grades. If it were my student, here's how I would handle it.

First, talk to your chair or dean about the student. My guess is that you're not the only professor having issues with this student. It's important that you have buy-in from your higher-ups about how to handle the situation. Beyond that, I think there are several things you can do to minimize the amount of interaction that you have with the student, including (1) requiring that he bring a statement of written issues to each meeting, (2) having another faculty member present at each meeting, and (3) cutting the meeting off if the student yells or  becomes agitated.

[bopper]

"Much as I said last semester when your other grandmother died, as it says in the syllabus we drop the lowest quiz score."

[the_geneticist]

As an aside, it is entirely possible that this student is busy during all of those office hours.  They are most likely taking a full load of courses and will be booked for most of the "normal hours" most days.
You can also tell the student that you would like to know what they would like to discuss during their chat with you.  If they say that they are just "upset about their grades", redirect them.  Ask if there is a particular topic they want to discuss in more detail, an example problem to help solve, etc.  They may think that "good students/smart people always get 100%" and not realize that even the best students don't earn 100% on all of their coursework.  You are here to help them learn the material, not to help them manage their feelings.  Depending on where you work, you might want to send a note to their academic advisor.  Some students have a hard time adjusting to the expectations of college compared to high school.
Also, you have every right to tell a yelling student to leave your office.

[Trogdor]

I would absolutely not tolerate a student yelling at me in my office. I'm very patient, but that's crossing a line.

I would have told them to lower their voice, leave my office, and be thankful I don't call security.

[hungry_ghost]

Yelling is NOT normal behavior.

backatit's post upthread is helpful in that it describes a compassionate and constructive way to respond. Truly, "happy people don't act like that." Trying to figure out what is going on and having a constructive conversation takes more work than the smack-down you could also give this student, but it is a good way to treat people.

But Pepsi_alum is right too, you must talk to your chair. You need to do this for several reasons:
to document in case the student complains about you (or a colleague) and possibly learn of similar concerns about this student
to confirm that you have your chair's backing in how you respond to requests (for example, for meetings at different times)
to get help assessing what's going on and what support resources can help this student
in case this student's behavior escalates, so you'll already have everything documented.

I would also urge you to document your interactions with the student in writing, including previous email exchanges, and share that with your chair, in addition to having a conversation with your chair.

I agree that it can be good to ask another person to sit in on your meetings with the student, especially if the student scares you or if you are concerned he will initiate complaints and you need an independent observer.
But, this can be counterproductive if the student sees it as a way of bullying him, and it can cause the student to become more defiant and lash out, so be diplomatic in how you manage it, and explain to the student in advance what you plan and how it will benefit him: "I've asked Prof. Smith to sit in on our meeting today since you are concerned about fairness, and she can provide an objective viewpoint. Is this ok with you?" or "Prof Jones is here because our last conversation got quite heated and he has a calming presence" or whatever.

Regarding requesting meetings outside of office hours, this is something for which I have zero tolerance unless I see documentation that the student cannot come during regular office hours. I can see my student's class schedules online, and they often LIE about when they have class, I think because they want to use that time to do last-minute homework or other things. When they realize that I've caught them, they are typically quite embarrassed. They also don't realize that our jobs entail tasks other than teaching in a classroom and sitting lazily in our offices waiting for students, so they don't see it as inconveniencing us.

I would explain that your schedule is very full, ask the student for a printout of his regular class and work schedule, and after you see that, that you will find a time when he is free that fits your schedule. If a student asks me to schedule a meeting outside of office hours, I tend to be a jerk about it (despite my admiration for backatit's compassionate approach) and I offer times like 7:45am. Often they suddenly realize that they are available during office hours. But this is a suitable response for Standard Snowflake Syndrome, and what you're dealing with is a little more problematic.

[backatit]

In all fairness, this student was online, too, and the most "yelling" they could do at me was all caps and threatening to go go my dean (which they did, repeatedly). I was at the point where I was posting notes on my bathroom mirror with sayings like "wait 24 hours to respond to this student," and "they do NOT control the conversation." :D I had to look at it as a crash course in communication for myself, too, and I was pretty stressed out through this. And I did notify my chair that this was going on, but I tried to frame it in a "this is the issue, and this is how I'm handling it" sort of way so that he thought I had it under control (HA!) but was aware.

I probably would have been a bit less able to respond calmly if the student had been actually screaming at me in person. Thinking back on it, I did have that happen once and I walked out and got someone, so I guess I DID handle it appropriately, but I felt like I somewhat lost control of the situation by having to get intervention (I like the way you frame that as having a "fairness" component so I'm going to try to remember that).

[pepsi_alum]

In all fairness, this student was online, too, and the most "yelling" they could do at me was all caps and threatening to go go my dean (which they did, repeatedly). I was at the point where I was posting notes on my bathroom mirror with sayings like "wait 24 hours to respond to this student," and "they do NOT control the conversation." :D I had to look at it as a crash course in communication for myself, too, and I was pretty stressed out through this. And I did notify my chair that this was going on, but I tried to frame it in a "this is the issue, and this is how I'm handling it" sort of way so that he thought I had it under control (HA!) but was aware.

I probably would have been a bit less able to respond calmly if the student had been actually screaming at me in person. Thinking back on it, I did have that happen once and I walked out and got someone, so I guess I DID handle it appropriately, but I felt like I somewhat lost control of the situation by having to get intervention (I like the way you frame that as having a "fairness" component so I'm going to try to remember that).

Just out of curiosity, what did your dean say when the student complained to him/her??

[backatit]

They never actually went to the Dean, just threatened to repeatedly (sorry, that was a bit unclear). It was a fully online course, so I had a full record of communication (which I still have) including all the e-mails from the students involved and some chat transcripts where they fully online screamed at each other. As much as we often hate online classes, it IS nice that they provide a paper trail...I tell students at the beginning of the class if they're working in groups (this was a class that involved a lot of group work) that they have to add me to any outside communication methods - ie. Discord, Groupme, etc, so I can supervise communication. I was glad in this case that I had that access.