Students suing universities over remote learning

[secundem_artem]

I wonder if parents who have their progeny still in the K-12 system can make the same case of wanting some part of their municipal taxes back.  And not just taxes, but since the parent was in no small way responsible for teaching, perhaps Mom should get some pro-rated amount of a teacher's salary.

In general, I find all of these arguments that "I did not get what I paid for" not to hold a lot of water. 

If I go to a Stones concert, find out that Mick has laryngitis so Keif will handle all the vocals, I don't get my money back.  I pay the same to go to a Grateful Dead concert as I ever did, even though John Meyer or Trey Anastasio in now way resemble Jerry Garcia either physically or musically.

My brother pre-paid a boat rental for a week's cruising in the Caribbean and found COVID-19 had affected his return flight.  Which in turn necessitated he end his cruise early, I doubt he got his money back for the 4 days of sailing he missed out on.

[Caracal]

I would think they would be tossed out in sympathy that the school had no choice but to send everyone home  then did the best they could under the circumstances. But claiming there was no slippage in educational quality would not strengthen our hand in the long run. If we like being on campus that is.
The way administration looks at it of course is that their job is to find money to keep the place running, for the good of society, so once they've found that money, it can't conceivably be anyone else's. Some people would find that arrogant.
I don't see too many academics saying the trade schools offer something different from the university experience without saying they can't offer nearly as much.
Of course having to refund money could well be the last straw that breaks the camel's back and then the college goes out of business. But from the point of view of the consumer, as long as someone wants college, there will be one. I'm not taking sides just saying I understand why the lawsuits are coming. They're not crazy people.

As a legal matter, I suspect most of them are deluded and getting bad advice from their lawyers. Of course there's been slippage in educational quality. But, thats not a legal standard for getting your money back due to breach of contract. I thought my teaching sort of sucked last spring. Does that mean everyone in that class should get a quarter of their tuition refunded?

[Aster]

I wonder if parents who have their progeny still in the K-12 system can make the same case of wanting some part of their municipal taxes back.  And not just taxes, but since the parent was in no small way responsible for teaching, perhaps Mom should get some pro-rated amount of a teacher's salary.

This has been promoted all over social media for weeks. There is a not-small group of private citizens who believe that since "schools are closed", that they should get their property taxes refunded to them.

It's mostly not people with children believing this. It's people who actually think that schools are totally closed. Like, no one is working at them, and students aren't enrolled in them.

The sheer level of idiocy that anyone could believe this is staggering.

[mahagonny]

As a legal matter, I suspect most of them are deluded and getting bad advice from their lawyers. Of course there's been slippage in educational quality. But, thats not a legal standard for getting your money back due to breach of contract. I thought my teaching sort of sucked last spring. Does that mean everyone in that class should get a quarter of their tuition refunded?

I don't know legal matters other than a handful of personal experiences. I'm sure you're right. I do try to delve into logic in my fashion.
Does that mean they are paying the lawyer by the hour? One third of nothing is nothing. So the contingency fee arrangement would dissuade lawyers from wanting the loser of a case. Unless the lawyer is desperate.
If you think your teaching was poor last spring and you are me, you likely lost your job at the end of that semester or received a letter of reprimand, stern meeting with the chair, letter of complaint from a handful of students or such. So there is at least one precedent for the students getting the impression they do or should have some control. People who have the real teaching jobs staffing classes with people like themselves is not the norm. It's just one piece of what goes on. And what school will call the norm as part of its advertising.
At the same time, if you think your teaching sucked, there should be times when it was also way better than usual. So things would even out. There's no evening out this time, just sacrifice. And the students/parents see how much money the government has doled out to the school. Money they and their children will help the government recoup in future taxes.
I don't know how it will play out, but I'd be totally amazed if there isn't a wave of lawsuits coming.
We look at the long running controversy over the cost of higher ed and see ourselves in the mirror with a look of concern. Students and parents don't necessarily see that. Some will see a bunch a people on the gravy train and then themselves, the chump who pays for it.

I wonder if parents who have their progeny still in the K-12 system can make the same case of wanting some part of their municipal taxes back.  And not just taxes, but since the parent was in no small way responsible for teaching, perhaps Mom should get some pro-rated amount of a teacher's salary.

This has been promoted all over social media for weeks. There is a not-small group of private citizens who believe that since "schools are closed", that they should get their property taxes refunded to them.

It's mostly not people with children believing this. It's people who actually think that schools are totally closed. Like, no one is working at them, and students aren't enrolled in them.

The sheer level of idiocy that anyone could believe this is staggering.

Well, some of them don't have children, so they've been funding schools so that they can have a better society, which no one ever really thanks them for.  So using the very same theory that they have been instructed to accept, they aren't getting the full measure of what they paid for either. And they might be losing money at their employment because of the pandemic. So  yeah, they are not happy.

[Hegemony]

Yeah, I also think that if we pay to see a movie and it's not that good, we should get our money back. For "Cats," they should pay us.

Or ... maybe it doesn't work that way.

[mahagonny]

If I go to a Stones concert, find out that Mick has laryngitis so Keif will handle all the vocals, I don't get my money back.  I pay the same to go to a Grateful Dead concert as I ever did, even though John Meyer or Trey Anastasio in now way resemble Jerry Garcia either physically or musically.

My brother pre-paid a boat rental for a week's cruising in the Caribbean and found COVID-19 had affected his return flight.  Which in turn necessitated he end his cruise early, I doubt he got his money back for the 4 days of sailing he missed out on.

Yeah, I also think that if we pay to see a movie and it's not that good, we should get our money back. For "Cats," they should pay us.

Or ... maybe it doesn't work that way.

In my opinion if you spend a fortune to see "Cats" then you deserve to see "Cats." You should have figured out what it would be like.
But these are trivial examples, yours and Secundem Artem's compared with the impact of an education on the rest of someone's life.
Still, I will concede and thank you all for correcting me. These suits are probably going nowhere, no matter who each of may sympathize with. Explained in the Forbes article below.

'"It's really unusual to have a class action against a school," says Darcy Kirk, a professor who has taught higher ed law at UConn for 20 years. Courts tend to side with colleges. "They call it judicial deference toward academia."

"Most judges don't want to see their schools go under," says Boston University law professor Susan Koniak, who has given Congressional testimony on class actions.'

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2020/05/05/will-lawsuits-help-college-students-get-coronavirus-refunds/#13c0b3ab71c4

[marshwiggle]

In my opinion if you spend a fortune to see "Cats" then you deserve to see "Cats." You should have figured out what it would be like.
But these are trivial examples, yours and Secundem Artem's compared with the impact of an education on the rest of someone's life.
Still, I will concede and thank you all for correcting me. These suits are probably going nowhere, no matter who each of may sympathize with. Explained in the Forbes article below.

'"It's really unusual to have a class action against a school," says Darcy Kirk, a professor who has taught higher ed law at UConn for 20 years. Courts tend to side with colleges. "They call it judicial deference toward academia."

"Most judges don't want to see their schools go under," says Boston University law professor Susan Koniak, who has given Congressional testimony on class actions.'

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2020/05/05/will-lawsuits-help-college-students-get-coronavirus-refunds/#13c0b3ab71c4

I'm not a lawyer, but don't judgements against someone depend on either some sort of deceit or incompetence? Since all of the results of covid-19 were not forseeable before the last school term, any way that the education provided has been below expectations is not a result of institutional fraud or mismanagement.  (If places are going virtual in the Fall, then if the information given to students doesn't match reality, it may be a different story since by then there's time to adjust the description of what's on offer.)

[Caracal]

In my opinion if you spend a fortune to see "Cats" then you deserve to see "Cats." You should have figured out what it would be like.
But these are trivial examples, yours and Secundem Artem's compared with the impact of an education on the rest of someone's life.
Still, I will concede and thank you all for correcting me. These suits are probably going nowhere, no matter who each of may sympathize with. Explained in the Forbes article below.

'"It's really unusual to have a class action against a school," says Darcy Kirk, a professor who has taught higher ed law at UConn for 20 years. Courts tend to side with colleges. "They call it judicial deference toward academia."

"Most judges don't want to see their schools go under," says Boston University law professor Susan Koniak, who has given Congressional testimony on class actions.'

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2020/05/05/will-lawsuits-help-college-students-get-coronavirus-refunds/#13c0b3ab71c4

I'm not a lawyer, but don't judgements against someone depend on either some sort of deceit or incompetence? Since all of the results of covid-19 were not forseeable before the last school term, any way that the education provided has been below expectations is not a result of institutional fraud or mismanagement.  (If places are going virtual in the Fall, then if the information given to students doesn't match reality, it may be a different story since by then there's time to adjust the description of what's on offer.)

Yes, from what I gather, courts have only really been willing to consider these sorts of suits when there's clear evidence of bad faith. I assume you would mostly establish that by showing that the school didn't follow the rules it had set up, didn't act in accordance with professional standards, knowingly lied to students etc.

[mahagonny]

I'm not a lawyer, but don't judgements against someone depend on either some sort of deceit or incompetence? Since all of the results of covid-19 were not forseeable before the last school term, any way that the education provided has been below expectations is not a result of institutional fraud or mismanagement.  (If places are going virtual in the Fall, then if the information given to students doesn't match reality, it may be a different story since by then there's time to adjust the description of what's on offer.)

My opinion, and I don't have a law degree either, is the bad faith would be when they won't use their assets to cover the losses.

Consider this: a catering company hires five people to serve food and wine at a wedding. They agree to $25/hour.  They do the job and they never get paid. They call the boss and ask for the money. He says 'those people turned out to be a bunch of crooks. They don't want to pay up. You'll get your money if and when they pay.' The workers still have a claim against the catering company. They (Bill and his wife Flo) should have enough money in reserves to cover the occasional mishap. They know the business has risks. But they don't have an emergency fund to cover these situations. They have a new sports car instead.
Colleges have been warned about terrorism, for example. They have no business assuming the semester can be completed as planned. They have cash assets and things that could be sold to raise cash. They may even be able to buy insurance for it.

But this is just me. Laws don't have to seem fair to everyone.

[marshwiggle]

Here's an article that discusses a lot of these issues:
https://www.salon.com/2020/05/09/as-elite-colleges-go-remote-students-revolt-against-the-state-of-higher-ed/

A sample from the article:

These lawsuits reveal very different arguments about what the value of a college degree is. One claim is that "the value of any degree issued on the basis of online or pass/fail classes will be diminished." This claim rests on the idea of job-market signaling in economics, in which the value of a degree comes from the positive signal that it communicates to an employer—for example, tenacity in sticking it out to obtain that education credential, or intrinsic intelligence in navigating the college maze.

[TreadingLife]

Here's an article that discusses a lot of these issues:
https://www.salon.com/2020/05/09/as-elite-colleges-go-remote-students-revolt-against-the-state-of-higher-ed/

A sample from the article:

These lawsuits reveal very different arguments about what the value of a college degree is. One claim is that "the value of any degree issued on the basis of online or pass/fail classes will be diminished." This claim rests on the idea of job-market signaling in economics, in which the value of a degree comes from the positive signal that it communicates to an employer—for example, tenacity in sticking it out to obtain that education credential, or intrinsic intelligence in navigating the college maze.

If persisting in college during spring 2020 (and possibly beyond) doesn't demonstrate tenacity and intrinsic intelligence in navigating the Zoom/Google Meet/Microsoft Team/Skype/Etc and Canvas/Blackboard/Moodle maze, I don't know what does.

[apl68]

Two more interesting quotes from that article:

"Zoom University isn't worth 50K a year."


[Online education is often understood as] "a lesser product given to people who are of lower social class."


This has got to be an awful year for any student with expectations of college that went beyond taking all-online classes to start with, or just commuting to campus to spend time in some bland classroom.  It's no wonder a lot of them are disappointed, and angry, and feel like they haven't gotten what they signed up for.  I don't see how a reasonable person could fail to understand that colleges aren't at fault for getting swept up by circumstances beyond their control, but I understand where the underlying disappointment and frustration comes from.

[mahagonny]

Two more interesting quotes from that article:

"Zoom University isn't worth 50K a year."


[Online education is often understood as] "a lesser product given to people who are of lower social class."


This has got to be an awful year for any student with expectations of college that went beyond taking all-online classes to start with, or just commuting to campus to spend time in some bland classroom.  It's no wonder a lot of them are disappointed, and angry, and feel like they haven't gotten what they signed up for.  I don't see how a reasonable person could fail to understand that colleges aren't at fault for getting swept up by circumstances beyond their control, but I understand where the underlying disappointment and frustration comes from.

They're not at fault that a pandemic has hit. But there are stupid things that go on. For example, they put up new buildings while neglecting to maintain the old ones which causes unnecessary cost and waste. They hire too many provosts. They make their survival everyone's problem by building up to a size 'too big to fail.' Etc.
Also, it's not merely whether they're at fault or how much. It's the lay of the land -- that some were going to close anyway, and because of this, just sooner. So for what purpose would I get so concerned that they're having some legal trouble? Seems cold, I guess, but hey -- my friends are losing their employment after ten years of spotless student eval's, some of them.

[TreadingLife]

Two more interesting quotes from that article:

"Zoom University isn't worth 50K a year."


[Online education is often understood as] "a lesser product given to people who are of lower social class."

I don't see how a reasonable person could fail to understand that colleges aren't at fault for getting swept up by circumstances beyond their control, but I understand where the underlying disappointment and frustration comes from.

The key is that many people think that this situation, and its resulting disruptions, only applies to them. Feeling disappointed is natural. Realizing you aren't the only one being affected requires maturity. Many are lacking in the latter category.

Some of our students were shocked when we asked them to pack up their dorm rooms on short notice. Sure, it was an inconvenience, but had they not done that, they still wouldn't have their stuff now. And it wasn't like we were the only college moving students off campus on short notice. But there was plenty of opinion on how inconvenienced they felt. Yeah, get at the back of the line, kid. We are all inconvenienced. From the person trying to buy groceries, to the person in the unemployment line, down to the loved ones not able to be by the bedside of their dying loved ones. We are all doing the best we can. If you can't see that, you are seriously lacking in humanity, and no amount of money or in-person classes can fix that.

[dismalist]

Here's an article that discusses a lot of these issues:
https://www.salon.com/2020/05/09/as-elite-colleges-go-remote-students-revolt-against-the-state-of-higher-ed/

A sample from the article:

These lawsuits reveal very different arguments about what the value of a college degree is. One claim is that "the value of any degree issued on the basis of online or pass/fail classes will be diminished." This claim rests on the idea of job-market signaling in economics, in which the value of a degree comes from the positive signal that it communicates to an employer—for example, tenacity in sticking it out to obtain that education credential, or intrinsic intelligence in navigating the college maze.

Yeah.

The present predicament affects everybody, not just a  college or two. Hence, the move to on-line will penalize [or not] everybody equally. Thus, relative prestige remains unaffected, and that is what signalling is all about, relative position. And colleges have made sure that GPA's remain unaffected, so that such signalling also remains unchanged.

More tangibly, what is impaired by going on-line is the consumption experience. No sports. No booze ups. No goofing off.  I doubt anybody would sue on these grounds, though. :-)

Thus, I believe the present pandemic will have a near zero permanent affect on higher education. The sector will get smaller, but that has been trend. Nothing to do with the virus.