Students suing universities over remote learning

[spork]

No disrespect intended to the people who posted in this thread, but the possibility of student lawsuits over an "inferior" education is really far down on the list of immediate worries for universities right now. And it's pretty easy for a university's legal counsel to respond to an extortion attempt with a letter that says, effectively, "Go ahead, sue, we have far deeper pockets than you do and we will drive you into bankruptcy. In the end you might win a refund that's the equivalent of a semester or two of tuition, but your legal costs will far exceed that amount. In the process you won't be getting a diploma from this university, and we'll broadcast your name far and wide so that you don't get accepted into any other university either."

[Aster]

I just don't understand how everything can be online. Sure, lecture, writing intensive, and discussion based-classes can be adopted. But how do you replicate organic chemistry lab at home? How can you replicate a biochemistry lab--people don't have PCR machines, biosafety hoods, and Western Blot imagers in their spare bedroom. How do you replicate studio experiences for the arts,  internships, or research experience in labs? Some things have got to be in person and you cannot delay them indefinitely because people need to graduate and some things are sequential. Here at large middling public U we are doing distance learning where possible, some exceptions where needed, and splitting the fall and spring semesters into 2 8-week terms (in case of a new lock down, I guess), with some exceptions to the 8-week as well--with lots of exceptions in graduate and professional programs. Of course the information we are getting is haphazard and continually changing.

If I were a student going into a lab science or health care field without real actual in-person lab instruction, I would feel a bit cheated. For example, new health professional students here starting this summer are now taking gross anatomy as a virtual class. TO me this does not prepare our future doctors and other health care professionals as well as actual interaction with the cadavers--so are they being cheated, is the public being cheated? BUT, we all are being cheated out of a normal life experience right now by the covid19. It is a new paradigm with few answers, it seems.

The answer is simple. You don't. You can't.

This summer is a partial write off for much of Higher Education. The Fall semester will also probably be a partial write-off for Higher Education. It's not just the emergency remote formatting for courses. It's also the enormous distraction, stress, and difficulties on the student's end. They're not going to be learning well, no matter what professors are doing.

But the alternative right now is emergency remote delivery, or no course at all. We are in an emergency. Bad options are the only options. Just get students through the term, as best as possible.

Like 30-ish% of polled professors in a recent survey, I dropped academic standards in all Spring 2020 courses waaaaay down. Easier exams. Smaller exams. Easier homework. Longer deadlines. Did it help? A little. But at the end of the day, overall course averages were still below normal. Bimodal grade distributions were very sharp. Students either made A's, or they made F's. Not too much in between.  Student engagement is not going to be good until this is all over and campuses are reopened and normal classes/normal college life resumes.

For folks concerned about weird liability or for not teaching adequately or whatever, the recommendations are that for all emergency remote format courses, syllabi have big and bold disclaimers placed onto them. The waiver from the Department of Education can even be directly pasted in. I have a big red "Pandemic" disclaimer on all of my courses, stating that the course is not in a normal format, some services are just not available to students, and that some learning outcomes will be alternatively presented and evaluated in "nontraditional formats".

If students feel "cheated" about enrolling in a remote class of any kind, they are free to not enroll. They may even be free to get a refund.

[marshwiggle]

If students feel "cheated" about enrolling in a remote class of any kind, they are free to not enroll. They may even be free to get a refund.

Well, if they enroll in a class that's identified as being remote before they sign up, there's no reason for a refund.

[mahagonny]

If students feel "cheated" about enrolling in a remote class of any kind, they are free to not enroll. They may even be free to get a refund.

Well, if they enroll in a class that's identified as being remote before they sign up, there's no reason for a refund.

Sure but where schools have already offered the online version at a lower tuition rate, they have provided a clear basis for not being entitled to the full amount for the Spring 2020 semester. And even if you haven't done that it is common practice, something with which to calibrate.

[Hegemony]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

[writingprof]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

Is there evidence to support this assertion?

[arcturus]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

Is there evidence to support this assertion?

It is complicated at my school because individual online courses are charged an additional fee (precisely for the reasons Hegemony states), but online-only degrees have lower tuition than the residential programs. So, online courses for residential students are more expensive.

[mahagonny]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

Is there evidence to support this assertion?

It is complicated at my school because individual online courses are charged an additional fee (precisely for the reasons Hegemony states), but online-only degrees have lower tuition than the residential programs. So, online courses for residential students are more expensive.

One of my schools is discounting the summer semester's tuition. I'm getting a small amount of work out of it. I think they are wise to do this. Enrollment is lower than usual.
If it were my other school (I'm referring now to the state university), I wouldn't assume the reasons stated to the public are exactly the true reasons. For just about any decision. State bureaucracies have a lot of things going on behind the scenes that are not transparent, and spin doctors.

[apl68]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

Is there evidence to support this assertion?

It is complicated at my school because individual online courses are charged an additional fee (precisely for the reasons Hegemony states), but online-only degrees have lower tuition than the residential programs. So, online courses for residential students are more expensive.

I've seen articles that indicate that this is widespread.  Hence the widespread perception that online education is cheaper and also worth less than face-to-face.  If that's one's perception of online education (correct or not), then it would be easy to feel cheated by an unexpected move to online, and entitled to some kind of pro-rated partial refund. 

[Caracal]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

Is there evidence to support this assertion?

It is complicated at my school because individual online courses are charged an additional fee (precisely for the reasons Hegemony states), but online-only degrees have lower tuition than the residential programs. So, online courses for residential students are more expensive.

I've seen articles that indicate that this is widespread.  Hence the widespread perception that online education is cheaper and also worth less than face-to-face.  If that's one's perception of online education (correct or not), then it would be easy to feel cheated by an unexpected move to online, and entitled to some kind of pro-rated partial refund.

This argument isn't likely to work. Online only programs are specific and separate programs and they generally have their own curricula. They usually aren't just the same classes and requirements in an online format.

[polly_mer]

No disrespect intended to the people who posted in this thread, but the possibility of student lawsuits over an "inferior" education is really far down on the list of immediate worries for universities right now. And it's pretty easy for a university's legal counsel to respond to an extortion attempt with a letter that says, effectively, "Go ahead, sue, we have far deeper pockets than you do and we will drive you into bankruptcy. In the end you might win a refund that's the equivalent of a semester or two of tuition, but your legal costs will far exceed that amount. In the process you won't be getting a diploma from this university, and we'll broadcast your name far and wide so that you don't get accepted into any other university either."

You're missing the class action suit aspect.  Yeah, if Jamil sues Super Dinky as an individual, even Super Dinky will likely be able to outlast him, especially if his primary argument is he preferred his face-to-face history class to what Professor Jenkins cobbled together with no notice. 

However, Super Dinky saying "Jamil filed suit during the corona virus online transition" is really not going to prevent Jamil from getting in anywhere else.  Super Dinky just doesn't have that power, even under normal times with people who were charged with felonies.

The class action suit filed against NYU by the performing arts students seems to have more legs to me.  Objecting that they did not get the performance part seems reasonable, especially at the huge prices that NYU charges.  Eventually, NYU and some of these other places will need students again who are willing to pay an absurd amount in tuition.

Harvard can probably kick people in the shins literally every day and still have a big line around the block of people who will sign up for that.

Other institutions do not.  NYU's 28% acceptance rate means they do reject people. However, at least in the circles I run, NYU is regarded as absurdly expensive for what you get.  A good state school is a better use of tuition money.  Even other institutions in NYC are better bang for the buck.  If the creatives don't actually get to use the facilities or do the networking, I can't imagine that people will keep paying through the nose for NYU.

[spork]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

Is there evidence to support this assertion?

Tuition for our online graduate and degree completion courses is 40% of list price of tuition for full-time, first-time undergraduates -- to be competitive with other institutions. And we have full-time, first-time undergraduates who take summer online courses from community colleges for far less what they get charged for our on-campus, fall/spring equivalents, then they transfer the credits back here, which means we lose the tuition revenue, because we don't offer summer online courses to this student population. A very stupid system that our revolving door of administrators has been quite happy to perpetuate.   

[mahagonny]

No disrespect intended to the people who posted in this thread, but the possibility of student lawsuits over an "inferior" education is really far down on the list of immediate worries for universities right now. And it's pretty easy for a university's legal counsel to respond to an extortion attempt with a letter that says, effectively, "Go ahead, sue, we have far deeper pockets than you do and we will drive you into bankruptcy. In the end you might win a refund that's the equivalent of a semester or two of tuition, but your legal costs will far exceed that amount. In the process you won't be getting a diploma from this university, and we'll broadcast your name far and wide so that you don't get accepted into any other university either."

All this time I had been envisioning someone suing for a refund of say, 1/4 of the tuition for spring 2020. The calculation would be the latter half of the semester was only half as valuable as what was charged. Which would not be an extortion attempt, just restitution. That's what my comments were based on. Not opportunism, just seeking a fair outcome. Perhaps there is more of a 'you against me' atmosphere than I was aware of. At the same time, (laying cards on the table) I do not deny attributing an anti-labor component to the development of adjunctification. And where higher ed regards its workforce as an enemy, it might not be long before it does likewise with its customers.

[waterboy]

A 1/4 refund would be claiming you got nothing for that half of the spring semester. And that's not true. Diminished perhaps...I'll give you that.

[mahagonny]

A 1/4 refund would be claiming you got nothing for that half of the spring semester. And that's not true. Diminished perhaps...I'll give you that.

Well, OK, someone, arbitrator, judge, could arrive at some computation. The point is restitution as opposed to opportunism or extortion (plaintiff trying to get money for the hardships suffered as a result of the pandemic, which is beyond the school's control) or overcharging (getting the full charge without delivering the advertised product.)