Students suing universities over remote learning

[spork]

[. . .]

The class action suit filed against NYU by the performing arts students seems to have more legs to me. 

[. . . ]

I read the article. First thing I noticed, which I should have expected, was "art student's mom." Actually, a musical theater student, so I'll guess stage mom. Probably with a residence near Fifth Avenue.

Yes, NYU is a rip-off that the East Coast equivalents of Lori Loughlin and Mossimo Giannulli put their children into. I'm sure there are plenty of NYC law firms happy to file class action lawsuits on behalf of such clients. And if NYU's legal counsel is anywhere near as expensive, the university will have layers of umbrella insurance, and the lawyers from those insurance companies will join in to defend NYU if a judge allows the lawsuit to proceed. Given the participants, I don't see this as a scenario with much chance of becoming a widespread phenomenon. Even my employer offers (as an agent of an insurer) voluntary tuition refund insurance in the event of "serious illness or accident." If the educational product was so valuable to the art student's mom, then she ought to have taken out some insurance on the ability of her daughter to complete it in the manner by which it had originally been advertised. 

And if I was running the admissions office of, for example, Columbia, Barnard, or USC, I'd be checking any applicant named Rynasko against a list.

[Caracal]

Well, OK, someone, arbitrator, judge, could arrive at some computation. The point is restitution as opposed to opportunism or extortion (plaintiff trying to get money for the hardships suffered as a result of the pandemic, which is beyond the school's control) or overcharging (getting the full charge without delivering the advertised product.)

This is somewhere in between very cynical and very naive. Functionally, college education actually doesn't work with a model where the school has to provide the "advertised product." To the extent that students, parents and the college view it that way, it's corrosive. The naive part, I think, is believing that things will improve if you adopt the idea that it is.

But, really, none of it actually works that way on any level. Do students get a partial refund because the iconic quad depicted on the brochures with students sunbathing on a nice day gets renovated and is a giant hole for a year? Do they get a refund if their dreams of becoming a doctor are dashed by failing the p-chem course? What if they can't get into the class of the superstar professor? If their history class is different than they always thought it would be?

[mahagonny]

Well, OK, someone, arbitrator, judge, could arrive at some computation. The point is restitution as opposed to opportunism or extortion (plaintiff trying to get money for the hardships suffered as a result of the pandemic, which is beyond the school's control) or overcharging (getting the full charge without delivering the advertised product.)

This is somewhere in between very cynical and very naive. Functionally, college education actually doesn't work with a model where the school has to provide the "advertised product." To the extent that students, parents and the college view it that way, it's corrosive. The naive part, I think, is believing that things will improve if you adopt the idea that it is.

But, really, none of it actually works that way on any level. Do students get a partial refund because the iconic quad depicted on the brochures with students sunbathing on a nice day gets renovated and is a giant hole for a year? Do they get a refund if their dreams of becoming a doctor are dashed by failing the p-chem course? What if they can't get into the class of the superstar professor? If their history class is different than they always thought it would be?

No. but somehow nearly all academics agree higher ed has been defunded. Apparently it doesn't have the good will it thinks it has.

[polly_mer]

The question remains what is being paid for?

I like bioteacher's example from years ago that likened college to the trainer at the gym: you're paying for the opportunity to use the equipment with expert advice.

You're not guaranteed any given outcome.

You have to do the work yourself.

Half a semester of networking is definitely worth some of the money paid.
Half a semester of a lab probably is worth less than half a semester of tuition.
Half a semester of a project-based class that required access to equipment and space is worth nowhere near half tuition since most of the value is in the second half of the term.

Caracal keeps making a case on course credit being the value, but that's not the value for students who enrolled for specific knowledge gained from specific experiences,  Credit is not the value for people paying big money for networking opportunities through shared experiences like the late nights working on the project in the final weeks.

[on preview]
Higher ed has lost significant good will over the years, in large part because a bunch of college credits is not at all the same as a college education.

[onthefringe]

Most universities actually charge a higher rate for online courses, because of the extra technology support needed.

Is there evidence to support this assertion?

My state flagship charges the same per credit hour tuition regardless of mode of delivery.

If you are taking entirely online coursework, you don't have to pay student fees that would include things like the activity fee, and (importantly) out of state or international surcharges. But you do have to pay a distance learning fee (once per student, covers all your online courses) that amounts to about a third of the cost of one credit hour.

If even one of your classes has any non-online component you have to pay all the on campus fees.

So, for an out of state student, taking all online is vastly cheaper than in person. For an instate student, all online is somewhat cheaper than in person because the on campus fees are much higher than the distance learning fee.

If you take some in person and some online classes, the distance learning class increases your fees by an amount equivalent to about 10 chipotle burrito dinners.

The perverse incentive actually relates to the fact that the money we get from the STATE is much lower for credits taken fully online.

[Cheerful]

If you take some in person and some online classes, the distance learning class increases your fees by an amount equivalent to about 10 chipotle burrito dinners.

Good one!

[Caracal]

Caracal keeps making a case on course credit being the value, but that's not the value for students who enrolled for specific knowledge gained from specific experiences,  Credit is not the value for people paying big money for networking opportunities through shared experiences like the late nights working on the project in the final weeks.

I'm not really saying course credits are the value. I'm just arguing that there's a reason courts have thrown out suits that try to argue that students have somehow not gotten what they were promised by the university unless they were either explicitly promised something, or there was clear bad faith. Trying to define exactly what tuition is supposed to pay for would end up being essentially impossible.

[spork]

I think this lawsuit over the AP test has more legs:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Glitches-Complicated-This/248825

[kaysixteen]

Ah, another problem with ol ed-- how to keep the tech working, and, like it or not, how to avoid cheating?