What would be a reasonable approach to classroom teaching in the fall?

[Caracal]

IHE has articles on this every week recently that have rousing discussions in the comments.  You might want to read https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/04/plans-fall-assume-professors-will-be-willing-teach-will-they and the discussion.

Other aspects to consider are in today's article https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/05/21/universities-determine-how-enforce-social-distancing

Thanks. I have been reading IHE and sometimes I put on my hazmat suit and wade into the IHE comments too. I did note one person there declaring that there is no problem because students are immune to corona virus. That would be welcome news if true, but it seems to be false. It does seem that children are less likely to pass on the virus than adults, but I haven't seen much info about the 18-22 age demographic. And some students are older.

Yeah, whatever makes kids response to the virus different seems to go away by the time they reach college age. Kids under 17 are usually less than 2 percent of the overall cases vs. over ten percent for 18-29. There's an unresolved question about whether kids get it at the same rate, or spread it at the same rate, but it is quite clear that they have much, much milder cases usually. It is true that most college students are at pretty low risk of serious complications, and even lower risk of death, just because they are young, but they certainly aren't immune. They also quite clearly can pass it on. There was a big cluster of Texas students who went on an ill advised spring break trip to Cancun and all got sick.

[Caracal]

It may vary from class to class, but as I said before, I expect that the bulk of teaching will be online and what happens in the classroom will be largely window dressing. Maybe some small upper level courses and graduate seminars can still be conducted largely in classrooms, but not bigger classes.

But anyway, that's not what I was interested in. I am interested in what conditions facutly will have for setting foot in classrooms in the fall.

Really it is mostly about the broader situation regionally and in the country. If there's a ton of COVID around in the fall, it isn't going to be feasible to have classes. If spread is more limited, then it becomes possible. Things like reduced class sizes and hybrid models are designed to limit outbreaks, not provide total individual protection.

If cases are low in an area, but someone gets infected, but doesn't know it yet, on a Thursday, a hybrid model might mean they only go to one class and potentially only expose 20 people, instead of going to two full classes and exposing 80. If there's more space, of those 20, there's a good chance fewer will be infected. It helps to think of it more as a public health measure than about individual protection.

OK but how does an individual faculty member decide what risks they are willing to take? The amount of social distancing, duration of class, ventilation, and barriers between students and faculty member are all relevant to individual risk for the faculty member.

Who knows, but personally I'm with Dr. Codex that personally I don't see a lot of benefit right now to trying to see into the future and understand what the risks might be and how I would feel about them. I can't imagine classes going forward in a situation where you really had widespread COVID in the region and on campus, so I'm not sure I really need to spend a lot of time worrying about some of these scenarios.

[Parasaurolophus]

I'm with arcturus: the reasonable approach to classroom teaching in the fall--and the winter and spring/summer, for that matter--is online. Our classrooms cannot handle the distancing requirements, and it's not worth trying. Plus, I don't want to have my work and tasks duplicated without pay.

I'd be willing to budge on that if we weren't already the lowest-paid faculty in the country, despite being located in one of the most expensive cities on the continent. You get what you pay for, and you get exactly as much loyalty out of me as you show towards me.

[downer]

Who knows, but personally I'm with Dr. Codex that personally I don't see a lot of benefit right now to trying to see into the future and understand what the risks might be and how I would feel about them. I can't imagine classes going forward in a situation where you really had widespread COVID in the region and on campus, so I'm not sure I really need to spend a lot of time worrying about some of these scenarios.

My impression is that schools in the hardest hit areas are imagining exactly this: "classes going forward in a situation where you really had widespread COVID in the region."  E.g. NYU.

[marshwiggle]

If cases are low in an area, but someone gets infected, but doesn't know it yet, on a Thursday, a hybrid model might mean they only go to one class and potentially only expose 20 people, instead of going to two full classes and exposing 80. If there's more space, of those 20, there's a good chance fewer will be infected. It helps to think of it more as a public health measure than about individual protection.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it is static. The risk is cumulative; so the longer people are interacting at any level the higher the probability that the virus will spread. Given enough time, basically everyone will be infected, even if lots of precautions are in place. And if "enough time" is less than one semester, that's way more than the health system can handle.

[spork]

Plan a course that is 100% online. Anything in the physical classroom has to be supplemental rather than essential. Social distancing requirements will mean only a portion of the class can be in the room at any one time, invariably some of those who are supposed to show up on their designated day will be absent, and some students will be taking courses entirely online from a dorm room or home because of health conditions.

[downer]

Plan a course that is 100% online. Anything in the physical classroom has to be supplemental rather than essential. Social distancing requirements will mean only a portion of the class can be in the room at any one time, invariably some of those who are supposed to show up on their designated day will be absent, and some students will be taking courses entirely online from a dorm room or home because of health conditions.

Thinking about those physical classses: Will you be prepared to enter the physical classroom with half the students present? Would you be ok if there was no way to open the windows? Would you agree to be in a closed room for 90 minutes?

I may be requiring that there are powerful fans blowing air out of the windows.

[Hibush]

Yeah, whatever makes kids response to the virus different seems to go away by the time they reach college age. Kids under 17 are usually less than 2 percent of the overall cases vs. over ten percent for 18-29. There's an unresolved question about whether kids get it at the same rate, or spread it at the same rate, but it is quite clear that they have much, much milder cases usually. It is true that most college students are at pretty low risk of serious complications, and even lower risk of death, just because they are young, but they certainly aren't immune. They also quite clearly can pass it on. There was a big cluster of Texas students who went on an ill advised spring break trip to Cancun and all got sick.

The 18-22 are in part more likely to spread it because, in the words of our dean of students, they are the least responsible demographic. They do things like go to Cancun for spring break or have private vans pick up at the dorms for frat-sponsored keggers after the a quarantine is announced.

[Stockmann]

What is your bottom line for entering a classroom this fall? What would make you refuse to be in the room?

I suppose I could refuse, but then I'd be out of a job, and I can't conjure up an offer of a comparable job offer easily, esp. not in present conditions. I'd take my chances on the Covid roulette since I'm not old enough nor wealthy enough to retire, and am young enough, and healthy enough, that I'm unlikely to die*. Which actually brings up something else - many professors in my department are elderly, so if we go back to full f2f teaching, many of them may decide to retire rather than teach f2f. Possibly older professors and those with health conditions might be allowed to continue teaching online, but there's enough of them than then we might as well continue everything online, esp. as some students will want that for themselves - the vast majority are trad-age, but some will have health conditions, or live with high-risk people, etc. We don't have the facilities to do any serious social distancing unless a lot of the classes and/or sections become online.

*My biggest fear isn't dying, as it's unlikely. My wife and child also have a low risk of death. My biggest fear is both my wife and I being incapacitated - who will look after our baby?

[Caracal]

Who knows, but personally I'm with Dr. Codex that personally I don't see a lot of benefit right now to trying to see into the future and understand what the risks might be and how I would feel about them. I can't imagine classes going forward in a situation where you really had widespread COVID in the region and on campus, so I'm not sure I really need to spend a lot of time worrying about some of these scenarios.

My impression is that schools in the hardest hit areas are imagining exactly this: "classes going forward in a situation where you really had widespread COVID in the region."  E.g. NYU.

Yes, of course, but the relevant question isn't the past situation, but the one when classes resume. New York cases have declined pretty dramatically from their peak.

[the_geneticist]

Well, if opting out of teaching face-to-face isn't an option, I would really insist that there is a plan for when to do WHEN there is an outbreak on campus.  And a plan for increased cleaning & social distancing while classes are face-to-face (e.g. hand sanitizer & cleaning wipes in every room, face shields or masks for all instructors, keeping restrooms clean, installing kick-plates on doors so they can be opened without touching a handle, etc.).  To be honest, all of campus would have to be kept clean like it was a hospital.  Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

[Cheerful]

Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

It's sad reading that so many campuses have been filthy for years, mine included.  Ours cut way back on custodial services years ago, around the same time they started adding lots of admin positions. Our custodians have challenging jobs, are treated poorly, and receive little respect from faculty and staff.

[marshwiggle]

Well, if opting out of teaching face-to-face isn't an option, I would really insist that there is a plan for when to do WHEN there is an outbreak on campus.  And a plan for increased cleaning & social distancing while classes are face-to-face (e.g. hand sanitizer & cleaning wipes in every room, face shields or masks for all instructors, keeping restrooms clean, installing kick-plates on doors so they can be opened without touching a handle, etc.).

...elevator button, vending machine, stair rail......

To be honest, all of campus would have to be kept clean like it was a hospital.  Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

How about computer labs (every single key, mouse, USB port, ....) and lounge/cafeteria tables and chairs; i.e. public spaces where students are constantly coming and going?  I can't even imagine any protocol for keeping those disinfected, let alone any method of ensuring it gets done.

[bio-nonymous]

The rotating of students sounds like a logistics nightmare.  What is the plan for students who do NOT want to come in person?  Or students who get sick and can't come?
We've been told that we can't require students to attend in person.  Also, that if we teach in person, we have to offer a "remote option" for all students.  And that no instructor can be made to teach in person.  So, we'll be online for all big classes and all intro level labs.

^this. We have the same message, all content must be also made remotely available regardless of teaching strategy because any student who feels unsafe cannot be made to attend in person. I am converted my entire thing to online (~70 students in my class) so the hybrid model won't apply to me anyway. I personally don't think stuffing ~70 students into a lecture hall with no social distancing possible is a good idea right now.

[Caracal]

Well, if opting out of teaching face-to-face isn't an option, I would really insist that there is a plan for when to do WHEN there is an outbreak on campus.  And a plan for increased cleaning & social distancing while classes are face-to-face (e.g. hand sanitizer & cleaning wipes in every room, face shields or masks for all instructors, keeping restrooms clean, installing kick-plates on doors so they can be opened without touching a handle, etc.).

...elevator button, vending machine, stair rail......

To be honest, all of campus would have to be kept clean like it was a hospital.  Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

How about computer labs (every single key, mouse, USB port, ....) and lounge/cafeteria tables and chairs; i.e. public spaces where students are constantly coming and going?  I can't even imagine any protocol for keeping those disinfected, let alone any method of ensuring it gets done.

There's not much evidence that surfaces play a big role in transmission. The virus can theoretically exist on surfaces for fairly long periods of time, but   in reality it is probably pretty hard to actually get infected that way. Worry about people breathing and coughing on each other, not all this other stuff.