What would be a reasonable approach to classroom teaching in the fall?

[marshwiggle]

Well, if opting out of teaching face-to-face isn't an option, I would really insist that there is a plan for when to do WHEN there is an outbreak on campus.  And a plan for increased cleaning & social distancing while classes are face-to-face (e.g. hand sanitizer & cleaning wipes in every room, face shields or masks for all instructors, keeping restrooms clean, installing kick-plates on doors so they can be opened without touching a handle, etc.).

...elevator button, vending machine, stair rail......

To be honest, all of campus would have to be kept clean like it was a hospital.  Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

How about computer labs (every single key, mouse, USB port, ....) and lounge/cafeteria tables and chairs; i.e. public spaces where students are constantly coming and going?  I can't even imagine any protocol for keeping those disinfected, let alone any method of ensuring it gets done.

There's not much evidence that surfaces play a big role in transmission. The virus can theoretically exist on surfaces for fairly long periods of time, but   in reality it is probably pretty hard to actually get infected that way. Worry about people breathing and coughing on each other, not all this other stuff.

This is the pesky thing about math; multiplication matters. So even of there's only a 1% chance that using a keyboard can pass on an infection, if a computer lab has 25 computers with people coming and going all day the cumulative probability of someone getting infected is high. This is the whole problem with putting people together; even if individual interactions have low probabbilities of transmission, cumulatively it's basically a certainty. And the longer people are together, the more will get it.

[Caracal]

Well, if opting out of teaching face-to-face isn't an option, I would really insist that there is a plan for when to do WHEN there is an outbreak on campus.  And a plan for increased cleaning & social distancing while classes are face-to-face (e.g. hand sanitizer & cleaning wipes in every room, face shields or masks for all instructors, keeping restrooms clean, installing kick-plates on doors so they can be opened without touching a handle, etc.).

...elevator button, vending machine, stair rail......

To be honest, all of campus would have to be kept clean like it was a hospital.  Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

How about computer labs (every single key, mouse, USB port, ....) and lounge/cafeteria tables and chairs; i.e. public spaces where students are constantly coming and going?  I can't even imagine any protocol for keeping those disinfected, let alone any method of ensuring it gets done.

There's not much evidence that surfaces play a big role in transmission. The virus can theoretically exist on surfaces for fairly long periods of time, but   in reality it is probably pretty hard to actually get infected that way. Worry about people breathing and coughing on each other, not all this other stuff.

This is the pesky thing about math; multiplication matters. So even of there's only a 1% chance that using a keyboard can pass on an infection, if a computer lab has 25 computers with people coming and going all day the cumulative probability of someone getting infected is high. This is the whole problem with putting people together; even if individual interactions have low probabbilities of transmission, cumulatively it's basically a certainty. And the longer people are together, the more will get it.

It is a distraction when, by far, the most likely source of infection is people breathing on each other.

[marshwiggle]

There's not much evidence that surfaces play a big role in transmission. The virus can theoretically exist on surfaces for fairly long periods of time, but   in reality it is probably pretty hard to actually get infected that way. Worry about people breathing and coughing on each other, not all this other stuff.

This is the pesky thing about math; multiplication matters. So even of there's only a 1% chance that using a keyboard can pass on an infection, if a computer lab has 25 computers with people coming and going all day the cumulative probability of someone getting infected is high. This is the whole problem with putting people together; even if individual interactions have low probabbilities of transmission, cumulatively it's basically a certainty. And the longer people are together, the more will get it.

It is a distraction when, by far, the most likely source of infection is people breathing on each other.

That's true unless the powers-that-be think that if they're careful enough about social distancing that they can basically prevent transmission. The whole idea of throwing hundreds or thousands (depending on campus size) of students together in the Fall as being a remotely viable option rests on all kinds of ridiculously idealistic assumptions about how the risk can be mitigated. With so many people, even if you can completely eliminate the risks associated with people breathing on each other there are enough other vectors that it's still going to happen. If everyone had their own self-contained breathing apparatus there would still be outbreaks.

[spork]

Yeah, whatever makes kids response to the virus different seems to go away by the time they reach college age. Kids under 17 are usually less than 2 percent of the overall cases vs. over ten percent for 18-29. There's an unresolved question about whether kids get it at the same rate, or spread it at the same rate, but it is quite clear that they have much, much milder cases usually. It is true that most college students are at pretty low risk of serious complications, and even lower risk of death, just because they are young, but they certainly aren't immune. They also quite clearly can pass it on. There was a big cluster of Texas students who went on an ill advised spring break trip to Cancun and all got sick.

The 18-22 are in part more likely to spread it because, in the words of our dean of students, they are the least responsible demographic. They do things like go to Cancun for spring break or have private vans pick up at the dorms for frat-sponsored keggers after the a quarantine is announced.

College Student Contribution to Local COVID-19 Spread: Evidence from University Spring Break Timing

[Cheerful]

It is a distraction when, by far, the most likely source of infection is people breathing on each other.

CDC, "How COVID-19 Spreads:"  [bold font added]

"From touching surfaces or objects. It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes. This is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads, but we are still learning more about this virus."

The best way to prevent illness is to avoid being exposed to this virus. You can take steps to slow the spread.

Maintain good social distance (about 6 feet). This is very important in preventing the spread of COVID-19.
Wash your hands often with soap and water. If soap and water are not available, use a hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol.
Routinely clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces."

[eigen]

Would any dean seriously say to a student who said that they felt unsafe that they have to be on campus? Of course not.

There is no way to make the classroom component mandatory. That's why it seems obvious that courses will be largely online, and classroom elements will have to be optional.

Maybe there are some classes which intrinsically require being in a school setting demonstrating physical skills. Maybe some labs or arts. Maybe if you are in dental school. Then there will need to be some arrangements made. But for the majority of college classes, that won't apply.

I mean, this argument hits art departments, theater departments, music departments, and all of the lab based sciences and health professions. That's not a small portion of college classes, so I'm not really comfortable saying that "it won't apply to the majority".

[apl68]

Well, if opting out of teaching face-to-face isn't an option, I would really insist that there is a plan for when to do WHEN there is an outbreak on campus.  And a plan for increased cleaning & social distancing while classes are face-to-face (e.g. hand sanitizer & cleaning wipes in every room, face shields or masks for all instructors, keeping restrooms clean, installing kick-plates on doors so they can be opened without touching a handle, etc.).

...elevator button, vending machine, stair rail......

To be honest, all of campus would have to be kept clean like it was a hospital.  Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

How about computer labs (every single key, mouse, USB port, ....) and lounge/cafeteria tables and chairs; i.e. public spaces where students are constantly coming and going?  I can't even imagine any protocol for keeping those disinfected, let alone any method of ensuring it gets done.

We've found it's quite doable at our public library to keep computer work stations wiped down after each use.  We only have a third of our public computers in use to insure social distancing, are able to keep track of everybody coming in and out, and use keyboard covers that are easier to wipe down than cleaning the whole keyboard.  But we're only one building, much of which is not yet reopened to full public use.

[marshwiggle]

Well, if opting out of teaching face-to-face isn't an option, I would really insist that there is a plan for when to do WHEN there is an outbreak on campus.  And a plan for increased cleaning & social distancing while classes are face-to-face (e.g. hand sanitizer & cleaning wipes in every room, face shields or masks for all instructors, keeping restrooms clean, installing kick-plates on doors so they can be opened without touching a handle, etc.).

...elevator button, vending machine, stair rail......

To be honest, all of campus would have to be kept clean like it was a hospital.  Not going to happen at my campus where trash containers overflow, bathrooms run out of soap, and the teaching lab floors haven't been cleaned in years.

How about computer labs (every single key, mouse, USB port, ....) and lounge/cafeteria tables and chairs; i.e. public spaces where students are constantly coming and going?  I can't even imagine any protocol for keeping those disinfected, let alone any method of ensuring it gets done.

We've found it's quite doable at our public library to keep computer work stations wiped down after each use.  We only have a third of our public computers in use to insure social distancing, are able to keep track of everybody coming in and out, and use keyboard covers that are easier to wipe down than cleaning the whole keyboard.  But we're only one building, much of which is not yet reopened to full public use.

To be fair, when patrons are done they go home, so if someone eventually gets sick you'll probably never know, or they won't trace it to the library. But if they bring students back on campus, and students get sick, you can be darn sure cutodial staff, lab staff, and others will be thrown under the bus for not being careful enough by the same people now advocating for getting people on campus.

[Caracal]

There's not much evidence that surfaces play a big role in transmission. The virus can theoretically exist on surfaces for fairly long periods of time, but   in reality it is probably pretty hard to actually get infected that way. Worry about people breathing and coughing on each other, not all this other stuff.

This is the pesky thing about math; multiplication matters. So even of there's only a 1% chance that using a keyboard can pass on an infection, if a computer lab has 25 computers with people coming and going all day the cumulative probability of someone getting infected is high. This is the whole problem with putting people together; even if individual interactions have low probabbilities of transmission, cumulatively it's basically a certainty. And the longer people are together, the more will get it.

It is a distraction when, by far, the most likely source of infection is people breathing on each other.

That's true unless the powers-that-be think that if they're careful enough about social distancing that they can basically prevent transmission. The whole idea of throwing hundreds or thousands (depending on campus size) of students together in the Fall as being a remotely viable option rests on all kinds of ridiculously idealistic assumptions about how the risk can be mitigated. With so many people, even if you can completely eliminate the risks associated with people breathing on each other there are enough other vectors that it's still going to happen. If everyone had their own self-contained breathing apparatus there would still be outbreaks.

Very unlikely to be true.

[Caracal]

It is a distraction when, by far, the most likely source of infection is people breathing on each other.

CDC, "How COVID-19 Spreads:"  [bold font added]

"From touching surfaces or objects. It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes. This is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads, but we are still learning more about this virus."

The best way to prevent illness is to avoid being exposed to this virus. You can take steps to slow the spread.

Maintain good social distance (about 6 feet). This is very important in preventing the spread of COVID-19.
Wash your hands often with soap and water. If soap and water are not available, use a hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol.
Routinely clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces."

That doesn't contradict what I wrote. Just pointing out that its probably a very small percentage of the risk.

[Caracal]

It is a distraction when, by far, the most likely source of infection is people breathing on each other.

CDC, "How COVID-19 Spreads:"  [bold font added]

"From touching surfaces or objects. It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes. This is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads, but we are still learning more about this virus."

The best way to prevent illness is to avoid being exposed to this virus. You can take steps to slow the spread.

Maintain good social distance (about 6 feet). This is very important in preventing the spread of COVID-19.
Wash your hands often with soap and water. If soap and water are not available, use a hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol.
Routinely clean and disinfect frequently touched surfaces."

That doesn't contradict what I wrote. Just pointing out that its probably a very small percentage of the risk.

Somewhat confusing update, but the basic point is everyone should still wash their hands, and expanded cleaning remains a good idea, but getting obsessed with surfaces is a distraction. The worry with schools reopening is about lots of people in enclosed spaces, not the things they might have touched.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/21/virus-does-not-spread-easily-contaminated-surfaces-or-animals-revised-cdc-website-states/

[mahagonny]

It seems pretty clear that for most of us, the bulk of our teaching will really be online, in a CMS.

But it is also clear that many schools, for legal or financial reasons, also need to say that they offering a classroom experience in the fall.

I am definitely NOT walking into a full classroom until I know that the students will not infect me.

I can imagine doing tutorials or discussion with a reduced number of students some distance from me in a well ventilated classroom. (Given the number of classrooms where it is impossible to open windows, or there not any windows, that's an issue.) I'd be comfortable with maybe 10 students in a medium sized classroom or 25 students in a lecture hall. I might require them to wear masks. I would it to be reasonably short too. Maybe 45 mins.

What is your bottom line for entering a classroom this fall? What would make you refuse to be in the room?

Whatever the college thinks is doable and optimal among the choices available. I'm here to help. That's one reason I continue to maintain I'm worth more than I'm paid, and worth more long term investment and job security than I have means to get.

[the-tenure-track-prof]

Thank you for starting this thread. I have similar question: I have a compromised immune system which means that I get sick easily and my recovery periods are longer than the average time it takes for a sick person to recover. In the past, I stayed sick for more than 3 months. Since I had a virus there was no antibiotics to take and I just had to wait until the virus runs its course. As for the COVID-19, thus far I`ve been very careful whenever I leave home, stay away from any and all gatherings, and teaching has been online.
My question is the same like the OP`s question: what would be a reasonable approach to teaching a classroom with 28 students?.
The class is a hybrid course that will meet every other week.
I agree with the comment about "I will not enter a room if I know that there is a sick student in it" but how do you communicate this message to your school without coming across as someone who is not willing to do the job?

[mahagonny]

Thank you for starting this thread. I have similar question: I have a compromised immune system which means that I get sick easily and my recovery periods are longer than the average time it takes for a sick person to recover. In the past, I stayed sick for more than 3 months. Since I had a virus there was no antibiotics to take and I just had to wait until the virus runs its course. As for the COVID-19, thus far I`ve been very careful whenever I leave home, stay away from any and all gatherings, and teaching has been online.
My question is the same like the OP`s question: what would be a reasonable approach to teaching a classroom with 28 students?.
The class is a hybrid course that will meet every other week.
I agree with the comment about "I will not enter a room if I know that there is a sick student in it" but how do you communicate this message to your school without coming across as someone who is not willing to do the job?

This is one part of my thought process. If people like me who don't mind getting back into the class room are allowed to then people like you who should use more caution can do your online thing and the student will still be getting some live instruction to round out the program.
Of course the unions will be saying 'you want us to get in the classroom and risk our lives because you have no regard for our safety.' Which is fair to say, but then again, could logically raise questions such as how much do people who smoke, are overweight, etc. (not referring to you, just a general question for our time) care for their own safety? But -- big picture, colleges richly deserve unions, and the thorns in their side that unions can be, if when we go to negotiate they act like such total jerks, which they do, most of the time. So I'm not going intervene in what the union does if they want to make some noise.

[the-tenure-track-prof]

Could you post the link or reference where you found the statistics about the demographic groups at risk for COVID-19?.
[/quote]

Yeah, whatever makes kids response to the virus different seems to go away by the time they reach college age. Kids under 17 are usually less than 2 percent of the overall cases vs. over ten percent for 18-29. There's an unresolved question about whether kids get it at the same rate, or spread it at the same rate, but it is quite clear that they have much, much milder cases usually. It is true that most college students are at pretty low risk of serious complications, and even lower risk of death, just because they are young, but they certainly aren't immune. They also quite clearly can pass it on. There was a big cluster of Texas students who went on an ill advised spring break trip to Cancun and all got sick.
[/quote]