The Mental Health Thread

[apl68]

Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'

Yes.  I believe in an actual Heaven and Hell as taught in the New Testament.  I don't see where suicide itself is a "mortal sin."  But if one commits suicide, without ever having committed to following Jesus, then one forecloses once and for all on any hope of avoiding Hell.

The thing is, it's not just about avoiding Hell.  Choosing to follow Jesus, to believe in him, and follow his teachings, and join a community of followers, can bring great help here and now. 

1.  It gives us hope in something outside ourselves and bigger than ourselves.
2.  It provides a framework for meaning when undergoing suffering.  We may not know why, but we can have the hope that it will occur for a higher purpose.
3.  It gives an assurance that suffering now is temporary, but joy will God will be eternal.
4.  It brings us into a community of fellowship that can provide mutual hope and support.
5.  When we get past episodes of psychological stress, we can experience times of great joy here and now.

Several times in my life, I have experienced quite serious depression.  I don't think my symptoms were ever as severe as some of what you've described, but they were clinical.  I'm quite familiar with suicidal ideation.   My most recent experience of this was earlier this year, a little before the pandemic hit.  As described above on this thread, I've been taking an antidepressant, and have recently found that I'm not yet ready to stop doing so.  Although I've been very disappointed at this, I'm grateful for the help it gives in dealing with whatever underlying brain sickness I have.  Incidentally, acceptance of medical treatment of depression is widespread among Christian communities--my pastor was one of the main advocates who persuaded me to try it this time.

Although the medication can help with a sick brain, we're not just our brains any more than we're just our stomachs.  We need more.  Jesus can give us more.  I would strongly advise you to read the New Testament, starting with the Gospels.  Look for somebody near you who can speak to about it.  I'll continue praying for you in this.

Please!  It has helped me more than I can adequately express.  It can help you as well.

[smallcleanrat]

Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'

Would anyone's opinion change with context? For example, therapist-to-patient vs. friend-to-friend.

[OneMoreYear]

Anyone here have an opinion on using the possibility of suffering after death as a deterrant to suicide?

As in, 'death may not end your pain because you can't know you won't continue to suffer (or suffer worse) after you die.'

Would anyone's opinion change with context? For example, therapist-to-patient vs. friend-to-friend.

In my opinion, I would not find it appropriate for a therapist to offer this as a reason for a client to not attempt suicide. However, if a client offered this as one of their reasons to live in a session with their therapist, that seems Ok (although I would hope the therapist would explore additional reasons to live with the client). 

Did someone offer this advice to you in a context you are uncomfortable with, smallcleanrat?

[mahagonny]

It almost sounds cruel to say 'as bad as you feel now, there's something worse.'

[smallcleanrat]

It almost sounds cruel to say 'as bad as you feel now, there's something worse.'

That pretty much sums up how I think of it. And everyone dies eventually, so it's not like deciding against suicide necessarily alters the final outcome. What's the difference? What are a handful of decades compared to a potential eternity?

In my opinion, I would not find it appropriate for a therapist to offer this as a reason for a client to not attempt suicide. However, if a client offered this as one of their reasons to live in a session with their therapist, that seems Ok (although I would hope the therapist would explore additional reasons to live with the client). 

Did someone offer this advice to you in a context you are uncomfortable with, smallcleanrat?

A therapist in my current treatment program threw this at me as a "so there" tactic. As in, 'you can't prove it's not true, so this conversation is over.'

Yeah, I was...pretty upset over that. I agree with you. I think that it is inappropriate outside of certain circumstances (client holds this belief, treatment program is explicitly faith-based, etc...). I think the way she used the old "you can't prove it's not" argument to shut down further discussion is what angered me the most. She kept repeating that phrase every time I tried to say something.

I'm still kind of unsettled by it; it made the program feel like less of a safe space, and more like just another place where I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut.

Yes.  I believe in an actual Heaven and Hell as taught in the New Testament.  I don't see where suicide itself is a "mortal sin."  But if one commits suicide, without ever having committed to following Jesus, then one forecloses once and for all on any hope of avoiding Hell.

................................................

Although the medication can help with a sick brain, we're not just our brains any more than we're just our stomachs.  We need more.  Jesus can give us more.  I would strongly advise you to read the New Testament, starting with the Gospels.  Look for somebody near you who can speak to about it.  I'll continue praying for you in this.

Please!  It has helped me more than I can adequately express.  It can help you as well.

apl68, I know your intentions with this post were friendly, so I hope this response does not come across as hostile (it certainly isn't meant to be). It's just that several questions popped up in my mind as I read your message.

1) When it comes to your point about going to Hell if you don't follow Jesus, how would you go about making this point to someone with a different belief system? I'm honestly curious. Suppose someone has found deep meaning and joy in a different religious tradition. Couldn't this message be perceived as implying that they must discard the beliefs they have held dear for so long (just as fervently as you hold yours) in order to avoid being tormented for eternity? Wouldn't this be a distressing suggestion?

2) Why do you assume I haven't read the New Testament or that I haven't had anyone speak to me about it? Or maybe you didn't, but were just suggesting I do if I hadn't.

3) If you wanted to suggest to someone who was struggling that they start attending church or reading the Bible or similar, knowing they do not currently share your beliefs, how would you approach them? I could imagine something like this being taken positively or negatively depending on who is receiving the suggestion and how the suggestion is conveyed. Would you consider someone's lowest moments to be a better or worse time to discuss conversion with them as opposed to when they are doing ok mentally and emotionally?

How would you feel if in one of your lowest moments, someone told you to drop Christianity and immerse yourself in the foundational texts and tenets of their non-Christian religious community (because that is what they did years ago and their life has been so much better as a result)? How would you respond to them? (See this is where text can be tricky; I'm not asking in a sarcastic or rhetorical way, I'm honestly curious).

[apl68]

apl68, I know your intentions with this post were friendly, so I hope this response does not come across as hostile (it certainly isn't meant to be). It's just that several questions popped up in my mind as I read your message.

1) When it comes to your point about going to Hell if you don't follow Jesus, how would you go about making this point to someone with a different belief system? I'm honestly curious. Suppose someone has found deep meaning and joy in a different religious tradition. Couldn't this message be perceived as implying that they must discard the beliefs they have held dear for so long (just as fervently as you hold yours) in order to avoid being tormented for eternity? Wouldn't this be a distressing suggestion?

2) Why do you assume I haven't read the New Testament or that I haven't had anyone speak to me about it? Or maybe you didn't, but were just suggesting I do if I hadn't.

3) If you wanted to suggest to someone who was struggling that they start attending church or reading the Bible or similar, knowing they do not currently share your beliefs, how would you approach them? I could imagine something like this being taken positively or negatively depending on who is receiving the suggestion and how the suggestion is conveyed. Would you consider someone's lowest moments to be a better or worse time to discuss conversion with them as opposed to when they are doing ok mentally and emotionally?

How would you feel if in one of your lowest moments, someone told you to drop Christianity and immerse yourself in the foundational texts and tenets of their non-Christian religious community (because that is what they did years ago and their life has been so much better as a result)? How would you respond to them? (See this is where text can be tricky; I'm not asking in a sarcastic or rhetorical way, I'm honestly curious).

I'm always glad to answer any questions, as best I can.

1.  Warning people about Hell is never easy.  It's a distressing subject.  Not one I prefer to spend a great deal of time talking about.  There are those who do spend too much talking about it.  But it is, and always has been, a part of the New Testament message.  Sometimes talking about it is unavoidable.  When I speak about my faith, I mostly accentuate the positive--what following Jesus has to offer.  Like I said, there's a whole lot more to following Jesus than simply trying to avoid going to Hell.  If somebody engages, though, then at some point the subject of sin, repentance, and potential eternal punishment is going to come up.  At that point, I have to be honest about what I believe. 

2.  I'm sorry if I implied that you had never read the New Testament.  I can't just assume that somebody has, since most people haven't.  Hence the advice to do so.  Even if one has already read the New Testament, it can be helpful to read it again.  It may afford new insights.  I've been reading it for most of my life, and am still finding new things in it.

3.  I've not often been invited to abandon what I believe for some other belief system.  When I have, I've just had to respectfully decline.  I feel thankful that I'm not in one of the places in the world where advice to abandon Christianity would be an order, not an invitation. 

As far as speaking about my faith to somebody who is struggling, let me put it this way.  When I see somebody struggling, I want to be of help.  Sometimes I'm in a position to offer practical or material help.  Sometimes I can offer sympathy or a listening ear.  And sometimes I can offer a potential solution that the struggling person may or may not have considered before. 

For problems such as yours, professional therapy and sometimes medication can be helpful.  So can what I suggested in my previous post.  It has helped me a great deal.  It has helped many people I know a great deal.  I offer what I offer as a testimonial in hopes of helping.  I could not in good conscience not say anything about it, when I see somebody hurting and hope that this could help.

[little bongo]

I do hope everyone on this thread finds what they need. I'll be taking another mental health journey starting this week myself--weekly tele-health calls to a counselor that I clicked with last year. And I'll be talking about anti-anxiety meds with my doctor.

[smallcleanrat]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply apl68.

I'm always glad to answer any questions, as best I can.

1.  Warning people about Hell is never easy.  It's a distressing subject.  Not one I prefer to spend a great deal of time talking about.  There are those who do spend too much talking about it.  But it is, and always has been, a part of the New Testament message.  Sometimes talking about it is unavoidable.  When I speak about my faith, I mostly accentuate the positive--what following Jesus has to offer.  Like I said, there's a whole lot more to following Jesus than simply trying to avoid going to Hell.  If somebody engages, though, then at some point the subject of sin, repentance, and potential eternal punishment is going to come up.  At that point, I have to be honest about what I believe. 

The following is not meant as a personal attack. It's just the way I feel about these particular elements, and the reason I have difficulty knowing how to respond when these conversations come up in face-to-face conversations.

To me this sounds a bit too dismissive of the concept of a place where the majority of human beings on this planet will be tortured without reprieve forever and ever. Even if a person is emphasizing the aspects of their religion involving love, kindness, and community, I would not be able to forget that it comes with the addendum, "Or else!"

Some people might hear this as a message of fellowship and peace, but would you blame others if what they hear is a threat?

Telling me I can avoid the eternal punishment for wrongthink by following Jesus during the minuscule allotment of time I have for my earthly life is not a comfort to me. But it's been my experience that raising any sort of objection or even asking questions, no matter how gently, is often taken personally and interpreted as hostile or similar. So I usually just keep quiet. Which is why I really didn't want to encounter this in therapy.

I hope you can believe me when I say I am not saying this with intent to offend. I just don't see things in the same way you do (and I really tried for a significant part of my life).

2.  I'm sorry if I implied that you had never read the New Testament.  I can't just assume that somebody has, since most people haven't.  Hence the advice to do so.  Even if one has already read the New Testament, it can be helpful to read it again.  It may afford new insights.  I've been reading it for most of my life, and am still finding new things in it.

I was not offended by the implication (though I have been through multiple readings and still refer to it from time to time). I'm just puzzled when people seem to think I've never read the foundational texts or heard the concepts of Christianity given how influential and pervasive it is and has been in the Western world. Maybe I just don't get around enough, and these things are not as well-known as I thought they were. Most people haven't read it? Do you have an idea of the percentage of people, say in the U.S., U.K., or Canada who have?

I have met people who identify as Christian (many in my own family) who haven't read much of the Bible or learned much about its contents. Is this truly the norm? This really perplexes me. If you believe it to be the most important book in the history of the world, a direct message from God to the people he created, why are you not motivated to know what's in it? But this is another question that isn't polite to ask.

3.  I've not often been invited to abandon what I believe for some other belief system.  When I have, I've just had to respectfully decline.  I feel thankful that I'm not in one of the places in the world where advice to abandon Christianity would be an order, not an invitation.

I thought this was an interesting comment. Would you think someone is being unreasonable if they view conversion to a religion that has nonbelievers tortured for eternity as more of an order than an invitation?

3.  I've not often been invited to abandon what I believe for some other belief system.  When I have, I've just had to respectfully decline.  I feel thankful that I'm not in one of the places in the world where advice to abandon Christianity would be an order, not an invitation. 

As far as speaking about my faith to somebody who is struggling, let me put it this way.  When I see somebody struggling, I want to be of help.  Sometimes I'm in a position to offer practical or material help.  Sometimes I can offer sympathy or a listening ear.  And sometimes I can offer a potential solution that the struggling person may or may not have considered before. 

Respectfully declining is something I can manage when I am relatively well. Would you find this scenario more difficult to deal with during a time of extreme distress? I certainly do, because I'm so conditioned to be extremely careful of the other person's sensibilities, as religious beliefs are highly personal and an integral part of many people's identities. So now on top of barely managing to hold together, I have to expend considerable mental energy figuring out a way to decline without offending. And even if I do manage to decline, the other person will often insist I at least hear them out (no matter how many times I've heard what they have to say). And some people will also insist on follow-up: did you read that book/use that essential oil/try that crystal/talk to that pastor I told you about? I know the intentions are kind, so I don't want to hurt feelings by outright rejecting their suggestions, but it can be very exhausting and invalidating.

But for the most part, I try to focus on the good intentions behind the advice, even if I don't agree with all of it. I'm most appreciative of someone who can just email me a list of resources or recommend a book or say their piece and then leave it up to me if and when I decide to look into it.

Would you say there are certain contexts in which discussions like this are not appropriate? I'm wondering especially about situations with some kind of power/authority imbalance: teacher-to-student, supervisor-to-subordinate, doctor-to-patient. For instance, I once saw a GP when experiencing severe fatigue. He told me to try to "find religion" because "people with purpose in their lives have more energy." Um...I'm on an exam table wearing nothing but skivvies. Is this really the time and place for this conversation? Do you not have any medical advice?

Isn't there some kind of professional code of conduct regarding issues like this?

[apl68]

If I were to see somebody driving down a section of road that I knew had a bridge out, I would see a need to warn that driver about the danger.  I'm not trying to threaten or coerce that person.  I'm trying to fulfill my responsibility to help.  I can't let the possibility that the hearer will hear find the message unwelcome or distressing, or perhaps even decline to believe it, keep me from saying something.  The risk of Hell is the ultimate "bridge out" down the road.

Not every time is an appropriate time to talk about Jesus and eternity.  I have to be careful in my own work as a (minor) city official not to bring my beliefs into things at an inappropriate time.  Nor can I let my own beliefs determine what materials we order for the library's collection.  Nor can I seek to impose my own beliefs upon my staff members (And believe me, there's one I'd love to be able to do that with--she's messing her life up in ways that she will surely have reason to regret!  I'd like so much to spare her that, but I can't live her life for her). 

When is the time appropriate for speaking about one's faith?  It's a judgment call.  It's something that takes prayer and careful consideration.  In the meantime, we can always be trying to live our lives in a way that follows Jesus and witnesses to his love.  Hence the old saying "Proclaim the Gospel every day.  Use words where necessary."

I know that it's awkward and distressing to hear talk about Hell and the need to follow a particular faith.  Most of us find it awkward and intimidating to approach others about it.  But if we see somebody headed in a direction in life that we believe will lead to disaster--and to missing out on something wonderful that can help so much in dealing with life's problems and pains--we can't in good conscience not make the effort to say something about it.

[mahagonny]

My protestant church barely mentioned hell, but when a catholic friend told me a bout it, I was shocked and couldn't believe it. I asked my parents and the minister about it and the answers I got were like 'yeah...well, it's there, but we don't go around hitting ourselves over the head with it. Don't worry about it too much.' I came to the conclusion they hadn't figured out the they think of it.
I think it's wrong for a therapist to talk this way with you because faith is meaningful because/when it is chosen. Your therapist should not be choosing your faith for you. Maybe they need validation for themselves. The therapist/patient relationship is not supposed to be about the therapist's needs. That's why they deserve to be paid.

[smallcleanrat]

If I were to see somebody driving down a section of road that I knew had a bridge out, I would see a need to warn that driver about the danger.  I'm not trying to threaten or coerce that person.  I'm trying to fulfill my responsibility to help.  I can't let the possibility that the hearer will hear find the message unwelcome or distressing, or perhaps even decline to believe it, keep me from saying something.  The risk of Hell is the ultimate "bridge out" down the road.

Not every time is an appropriate time to talk about Jesus and eternity.  I have to be careful in my own work as a (minor) city official not to bring my beliefs into things at an inappropriate time.  Nor can I let my own beliefs determine what materials we order for the library's collection.  Nor can I seek to impose my own beliefs upon my staff members (And believe me, there's one I'd love to be able to do that with--she's messing her life up in ways that she will surely have reason to regret!  I'd like so much to spare her that, but I can't live her life for her). 

When is the time appropriate for speaking about one's faith?  It's a judgment call.  It's something that takes prayer and careful consideration.  In the meantime, we can always be trying to live our lives in a way that follows Jesus and witnesses to his love.  Hence the old saying "Proclaim the Gospel every day.  Use words where necessary."

I know that it's awkward and distressing to hear talk about Hell and the need to follow a particular faith.  Most of us find it awkward and intimidating to approach others about it.  But if we see somebody headed in a direction in life that we believe will lead to disaster--and to missing out on something wonderful that can help so much in dealing with life's problems and pains--we can't in good conscience not make the effort to say something about it.

Thanks for continuing to respond, apl68!

I hope I did not cause offense. I just wanted to be honest about how I feel about things like this. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective. Many people in my life would have shut down the conversation by now, leaving me in the dark as to their point of view.

I went to parochial school for elementary, and one of the pastors was adamant that Christians should never be friends with non-Christians because of the danger of being corrupted ("I wouldn't even give a non-believer the time of day"). I remember some of the other kids asking how it was possible to share the Gospel with nonbelievers (something we were taught was our moral duty) if you refuse to speak to them. He pretended he didn't hear the question. This was the same pastor who told us, "Hell is full of good people" to drive home the point that being a good person doesn't save you from damnation. It doesn't matter how kind, compassionate, and moral you are; if you are a kind, compassionate and moral Jew, Hindu, or Muslim then you burn. And you will have deserved it.

I understand you aren't *trying* to threaten or coerce someone by sharing your beliefs and that your intent is to issue a warning out of concern for that person. But, to me, the threat and coercion seem baked into the system. I know the person sharing their view with me didn't make the rules about Hell, but they do seem to be ok with these rules. That's what makes me feel uncomfortable sometimes; knowing the person I am talking to thinks I am doomed if I don't convert, and that it would be sad but not undeserved. And when someone is already in a very vulnerable state, this implication might do more harm than good.

I recall a pastor commenting on parents who wish to wait until a child is older before teaching them about religion (under the assumption that preschool and kindergarten-aged children are too young to really understand). He said it was better to let your kid play in the streets and be killed by a car rather than to let them make up their own mind about religion or to wait until they were older before teaching them Christianity, because Hell is so much worse than being hit by a car. His opinion was that allowing a child to consider the claims and traditions of different religions and come to their own conclusions was tantamount to child abuse.

I know there is an extremely broad range of views within Christianity and among individual Christians regarding tolerance for other belief systems or questioning of religious teachings. I'm just sharing some of the beliefs I was raised with.

I also don't think "decline" is the right word with regards to belief. When I mentioned "declining" earlier, I meant declining *actions* like going to a faith-healing seminar or something. Contrary to the claims I was raised with, I don't think I *choose* whether or not to believe something. It either seems credible to me or it doesn't; it makes sense to me or it doesn't. And during many long years of hearing that unbelievers are absolute scum who deserve to be tormented forever (because the only reason someone can hear the Gospel and not believe is if they *choose* to disobey God and continue a life of sin), lack of belief was certainly not the result of lack of sincere effort. But there are people who are convinced this is impossible ("If you don't believe, it's because you didn't *sincerely* seek God" or "The truth of Christianity is so obvious, the only reason people are not Christian is because they don't want to repent of their wickedness").

I do get angry when people say things like that, because the implication is either I'm a liar or I don't even know my own thoughts and feelings; but nothing I can say ever seems to shake their confidence in such assertions. It's why sometimes these conversations can be extremely invalidating and leave me feeling worse than before.

[apl68]

It sounds like you've been exposed to some people with sadly distorted ideas about the Gospel and about how to be a Christian witness, smallcleanrat.  I knew that this was a real possibility, because unfortunately such ideas are widespread.  This is part of the reason why I suggested (and still would suggest) reading the New Testament for yourself--to get a fresh reading of what the New Testament actually says, unfiltered through others' preconceptions. 

The fundamental teaching of the New Testament as a whole is that all human beings exist in a state of alienation from God.  This alienation leads to evil and suffering in this life, and eternal destruction in the next.  The purpose of Jesus is to provide a way to be reconciled with God.  We can recognize and admit our alienation from God, ask Jesus to help us come back to God, and commit to living life the way Jesus taught. 

The New Testament doesn't teach that unbelievers are "scum."  It teaches that God loves unbelievers enough to sacrifice Jesus on our behalf.  You've probably seen John 3:16:  "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but should have everlasting life."

When Christians tell others about this, we're not trying to make them feel invalidated.  But our understanding is that everybody--ourselves included--has a fundamental, existential problem in our alienation from God.  The only way to go about getting a problem solved is to recognize it.  We're trying to help others understand where the problem lies. 

It's clear from things that you've said before that you recognize that you have serious problems in your life.  That puts you one up on those--a certain President comes to mind--who try to imagine that they're perfectly okay just the way they are.  In your case professional counseling and perhaps medication could help you deal with some of the trouble.  I'm only asking you to consider and investigate something else that could ultimately be of even greater help.

[smallcleanrat]

It sounds like you've been exposed to some people with sadly distorted ideas about the Gospel and about how to be a Christian witness, smallcleanrat.  I knew that this was a real possibility, because unfortunately such ideas are widespread.  This is part of the reason why I suggested (and still would suggest) reading the New Testament for yourself--to get a fresh reading of what the New Testament actually says, unfiltered through others' preconceptions. 

There are so many ideas about so many aspects of Christian theology and interpretation of the Bible. And so many of their proponents confidently assert "Those other people got it wrong."

I don't even see how it's possible to read these texts "unfiltered." For one thing, I can't read any of the languages used in the original writings, so I have to rely on translations, specifically English language (and there are *many* versions of those currently being published). And what about all the decisions about which writings are canon and which apocryphal? And do you suppose there was no filtering across centuries of transcriptions of transcriptions of transcriptions?

And everyone holds preconceptions acquired through the culture and time period, in addition to education and personal experiences.
When I first tried reading a Bible (graduating from children's Bibles), I realized I needed much more context to hope to get through it. Without some background reading about the ancient world and footnotes or dictionaries or encyclopedias to explain some of the culture of those ancient peoples, most of the Bible would have been incomprehensible. And I don't believe for a second even with reading a few histories and commentaries that I understood everything.

So what would be considered a "fresh reading?" Also, I mentioned above I have been through *multiple* readings. And I'd reckon the pastors you say have distorted ideas also went through multiple readings (not that I'm defending them). And I seem to recall an argument between two classmates, each holding a different guide to reading the Bible. They disagreed on the interpretation of some passage, each defending the position of their chosen author.

"Do you think you know better than the writer of this book? This man's been a pastor for decades. He's studied the Bible his whole life!"
Retort: "Well, so has *this* writer!"

The fundamental teaching of the New Testament as a whole is that all human beings exist in a state of alienation from God.  This alienation leads to evil and suffering in this life, and eternal destruction in the next.  The purpose of Jesus is to provide a way to be reconciled with God.  We can recognize and admit our alienation from God, ask Jesus to help us come back to God, and commit to living life the way Jesus taught. 

As I indicated above, I do not find this a core tenet that would lead me to peace and joy. There are various ideas regarding what Hell is like and who is sent there, but I'll focus on the one you have stated that requires belief. Nothing you have said here contradicts (or even comments on) the pastor who said "Hell is full of good people," unless you think non-Christians are all bad people (and I don't think you do). Wouldn't a person's joy in heaven be marred even the tiniest bit by the knowledge that billions of human souls are in eternal agony? Will the knowledge of this be wiped to eliminate any negative feelings about this? If a believer loves a non-believer in life, does the love vanish upon reaching Heaven? Otherwise, how joyful could the believer feel that a loved one has been condemned?

You didn't address the point I made about feeling uncomfortable with the notion that the person I am talking to believes I *deserve* Hell unless I convert. Telling me this is true of *everyone* and not a comment on me personally doesn't help much. There is still the idea that we are born sinful, corrupted and unworthy, but God was benevolent enough to send Jesus to be slaughtered so we could be washed clean with his blood. Nevermind why God demands innocent bloodshed in the first place, that's just the price He set for sin-cleansing.

The unbeliever is one who refuses the offer to be washed free of sin, so does it not stand to reason that they continue to be sinful, corrupted, and unworthy? And there are numerous verses throughout the Bible warning against associating with the non-believer, lumping them in with criminals. I suppose it's a matter of interpretation whether you take this to mean unbelievers are "scum." Anyway, if the unbeliever *isn't* scum, why does their fate have to be eternal torture? Indeed, why must they face eternal torture even if they are scum?

If the rule is there must be no unbelievers in the kingdom of God, why not end the unbeliever's existence at death? Why must they suffer forever? Punishment? Punishment for what? For being mistaken? For growing up in a different religious culture?

If you characterize God as loving and just, where is the justice in that? Or the love?

What happened to the millions of Jews who were murdered or died in concentration camps during the Holocaust? Were they simply sent from one hell to another? I can't feel ok with that. I don't ever *want* to get to a point where I feel ok with that.

When Christians tell others about this, we're not trying to make them feel invalidated.  But our understanding is that everybody--ourselves included--has a fundamental, existential problem in our alienation from God.  The only way to go about getting a problem solved is to recognize it.  We're trying to help others understand where the problem lies.

I understand you aren't *trying* to invalidate, just as you weren't *trying* to threaten. You don't need to have intent in order to do harm. My point was the message itself contains the threat. And an unshakeable confidence in the Bible's explanations of human nature and behavior can make someone feel at ease adamantly denying someone else's experience (e.g. saying people *choose* to be gay).

I'm only asking you to consider and investigate something else that could ultimately be of even greater help.

Why do you keep saying this as if I *haven't* considered and investigated? Do you not believe me? Do you think I must have done it wrong? What is it you think will happen if I go through the process again? If I do, and I still don't convert, would you think I deserve to burn?

[Parasaurolophus]

I suggest we return to the topic of mental health. We can have a more in-depth theological discussion in a separate thread.

[smallcleanrat]

I suggest we return to the topic of mental health. We can have a more in-depth theological discussion in a separate thread.

I see where you're coming from, but I think it is related.

The original questions had to do with trying to scare someone into holding back from suicide with talk of suffering in the afterlife.

It lead to further discussion of whether someone's most vulnerable time is an appropriate time to talk to them about converting to a different religion. It happens a lot.

People can be well-meaning and not realize how some of the things they are saying may come across.

I was trying to convey why someone might be resistant

But I'll stop making long posts about this.