The Mental Health Thread

[Hegemony]

Has anyone here ever been told by someone close to them that there are ways in which their suicide would lift a burden and improve the lives of others? Did you find yourself losing trust in the words "I love you" because of it?

Would you ever say such a thing to another person? How bad would things have to be for you to (even fleetingly) wish the other person would suicide? How bad would things have to be for you to explicitly tell that other person you sometimes wish for their suicide?

Have you ever been so stressed by another person's continued existence (family, friend, colleague, student, anyone at all) that you hoped they would kill themselves?

This is a sign of sociopathy is another person. No one should have to put up with anyone who tells them that, or even hints it. SCR, if this is happening to you, as I surmise — it is no wonder that you feel depressed. Someone is making you depressed.  It is a realistically depressing thought that a person who represents themselves as loving you wishes you would harm yourself, or entertains the thought that it would be a benefit if you did so. If this person is so dissatisfied by your presence, why don't they do the mature thing and stop hanging around with you? To wish for more — to think that the solutlon to their problem is for you to harm yourself —  is literally monstrous.

It's also, just to be coldly logistical about it, completely over-the-top unnecessary! I mean, I dislike my current doctor. She's brusque and she doesn't listen. So, what's a good answer to this dilemma? Is it for me to stop going to this doctor? (Yes.) Or is it for the doctor to kill herself? (Ridiculous idea.)

And if your person thinks that you need to kill yourself so that "the world" will be better off, hahahaha at the idea that he knows what's good for "the world." So many people who know what's good for "the world," right? So many people who have such terrible ideas about how "the world" would be better off. Grandiose narcissism.

A related story: I used to wonder why I had such an anger problem. I tried to suppress my anger, and it only came out in very oblique ways. But if I didn't clamp down on myself all the time, I'd just get so angry at my boyfriend. I got books to figure out what was wrong with me, I consulted experts. Finally I figured it out. The problem was not the anger. The problem was the boyfriend. He was unreliable, hot-and-cold, a terrible listener, demonstrably dishonest ... and he had me believing that my anger in response to this was a "me" problem. Well, it was, in that I didn't see that I had an action to take. And that action was to leave the boyfriend. Anger problem solved.

You may well have underlying depression, SCR. But as the saying goes, just because you're depressed doesn't mean someone isn't depressing you. I hope you can free yourself — no one can expect themselves to be happy in an abusive situation.

[smallcleanrat]

Hi Smallcleanrat, I was just wondering how you were doing the other day. You said:

Part of me thinks, "Hey, I guess this is a fair indication that the meds are providing real benefits. That's a good thing; you are on meds that work." and part of me thinks, "So, the improvements you've made have more to do with your biochemistry and less to do with all those higher order cognitive skills you thought you were developing? That's...disappointing."

One of those higher order cognitive skills is being able to recognize the first part of that sentence. That's a big win. Years ago now, I was on meds, doing fine, learning lots of self-care things, and then gradually tapered off meds. And the depression came back--not right away, but it sort of sneaks up and things got really bad. So back on the meds, making progress, tapering off, and things getting worse--but that time, I had learned enough to recognize the signs before things got really bad. You're there--the meds work and you recognize it because of those higher order cognitive skills. The other part is the depression talking.

I hadn't thought of it that way, but I guess you're right. Recognizing the positive *is* a skill. Thanks for pointing that out!



Regarding being told I'm a burden...I've had the same question of why I need to be dead for the other person to have peace. Walking away from a relationship you feel is harming you is an option; I'm not holding anyone prisoner.

My mom (who is the most egregious offender on this count) explained it to me in a way that does have a kind of logic to it. It's paired to one of her other refrains, "I love you so much, and I wish I didn't."

I think the basic premise is, if you care deeply about someone walking away doesn't mean you stop worrying about them. And SO had a previous partner with chronic depression (and previous suicide attempt), and he felt for a long time he couldn't walk away because she might hurt herself if she did. So walking away doesn't necessarily eliminate the stress; that worry will still be there so long as the other person is still alive.



Hegemony, you bring up a point that's been bugging me about a common piece of 'wisdom': "Nobody can *make* you unhappy; you are in control of how you react; you decide how you are going to feel."

It's not that I disagree with the basic premise, it just seems too extreme. As though other people have zero responsibility to treat you with decency.

I think people who dispense this bit of advice are being too literal with the words "that person made me feel..." Of course they're not directly shoving their hands into your skull and manipulating your brain, but I don't think it's entirely fair to wag your finger at someone who feels hurt when a loved one says, "You're absolutely useless. I think you should kill yourself, and spare the rest of us the stress of having to deal with you. If I have a stroke or a heart attack and die early, it'll be your fault."



SO's version of this behavior was not as malicious as my mom's, but in a way it hurt more because he's *never* said anything like that before. He's never once even raised his voice to me in an argument. So it blindsided me. Unlike my mom, SO apologized afterwards, that what he'd said had been horrible, and that he hadn't meant it. And with SO it was a one-off, unlike with mom.

Even so, I've distanced myself from him. I don't have the same confidence I had before that I can let him see my vulnerabilities without being hurt. We've had discussions about it, and he's been respectful about giving me my space. We are still basically friendly with each other, but it is more of a roommates-style relationship at the moment. We've both aired some of our doubts about continuing the relationship, but that's as far as it's gone so far.

My doctors do think (and I agree) that right now, when I'm going through a lot of meds adjustments and other health stuff, it's not the time to either 1) live alone or 2) make any major life changes.

So right now I'm still focusing on getting stronger and more stable; told my therapist explicitly that I want to work towards being able to function independently, without *needing* someone to be looking out for me (even though it's always nice to have other people who care, I can't rely on that always being the case).

But I'm still not having an easy time grasping the concept of having value distinct from relationships and achievements.

[little bongo]

Hi Smallcleanrat--adding as much as I can to the good wishes.  With regard to loved ones and SO's, I know from some experience and some reading that they usually aren't very good at letting the person in pain know what they (that is, the loved ones and SO's) need, because, as you've noted, things get complicated. I won't add anything to that except, just let them find what they need to find, and concentrate on self-care.

As for value and achievements and relationships--yeah, that's tough. I think talking about those things helps a lot, and having someone listen to you to remind you that such-and-such a thing really is an accomplishment--maybe even a cause for a self-reward of some kind. I don't know in your case how much talking helps, and how much medication is needed (I require a combination of "talking cure" and meds, and it seems to be okay for me for the most part), but definitely try to cultivate people who will listen, whether it's their job or whether they do it through friendship.

Best of luck!

[smallcleanrat]

Do you snore?

I have sleep apnea (corrected by a CPAP).  Before I was diagnosed with apnea and got the CPAP though, i was sent to the ER with back spasms.  I was given large doses of  the addictive narcotics that no doctor will write prescriptions  for now.  They were relatively large doses as well, and the worst part was that they made my apnea worse, so I would go to sleep and wake up every few minutes.  So I had something like what you seem to be experiencing... The pills made me very sleepy, but the side effects prevented me from actually sleeping.  Anyway, I know what it is to be drugged to sleep, and unable to get any sleep!!


Just a suggestion... IF your SO indicates that you snore, perhaps a sleep study would be in order.  A CPAP machine may resolve the not being able to sleep issue.

Of course IF you DONT snore, or if Apnea is not an issue, then please dont worry about paying my bill!!  (2 cat stories in the Herding Cats Thread).

Good luck, and I hope that you feel better soon!

Still having a lot of difficulty sleeping through the night. The daytime fatigue is pretty awful. Concentration difficulties kill my ability to be productive; lack of productivity tanks my mood and self-esteem.

I'm trying to get approved for a sleep study, because I'm suspecting the issue might be related to what clean described earlier in this thread.  SO told me recently he heard me snoring and choking/gasping in my sleep (which is relatively new).

I don't want to be a zombie anymore, I want to feel fully conscious again.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

Do you snore?

I have sleep apnea (corrected by a CPAP).  Before I was diagnosed with apnea and got the CPAP though, i was sent to the ER with back spasms.  I was given large doses of  the addictive narcotics that no doctor will write prescriptions  for now.  They were relatively large doses as well, and the worst part was that they made my apnea worse, so I would go to sleep and wake up every few minutes.  So I had something like what you seem to be experiencing... The pills made me very sleepy, but the side effects prevented me from actually sleeping.  Anyway, I know what it is to be drugged to sleep, and unable to get any sleep!!


Just a suggestion... IF your SO indicates that you snore, perhaps a sleep study would be in order.  A CPAP machine may resolve the not being able to sleep issue.

Of course IF you DONT snore, or if Apnea is not an issue, then please dont worry about paying my bill!!  (2 cat stories in the Herding Cats Thread).

Good luck, and I hope that you feel better soon!

Still having a lot of difficulty sleeping through the night. The daytime fatigue is pretty awful. Concentration difficulties kill my ability to be productive; lack of productivity tanks my mood and self-esteem.

I'm trying to get approved for a sleep study, because I'm suspecting the issue might be related to what clean described earlier in this thread.  SO told me recently he heard me snoring and choking/gasping in my sleep (which is relatively new).

I don't want to be a zombie anymore, I want to feel fully conscious again.

Smallcleanrat:

I went to a sleep doctor and they gave me a little machine to wear at night as a test. I may have paid out of pocket for this (always ask for a discount). Luckily I didn't have sleep apnea, but I was stressed out. I lost some weight (mass really), started eating healthier, had surgery, concentrated on relaxing and now I'm sleeping better. I still have nights where anxiety keeps me awake, but they are few and far between.

Could you make an appointment with a doctor and do something similar?

SO also has some issues sleeping. Unfortunately he has nightmares (almost every night) and night terrors. Most nights he will kick/thrash, talk, moan, or gasp. I usually wake him up if it gets too bad. Do you have any of those issues? Maybe there's a psychological component if you don't have sleep apnea?

[smallcleanrat]

Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.

[mahagonny]

Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.

So sorry. I have survived suicidal stretches. I wake up to guilt and regret every day. Given what I've put myself and others through I am surprised I can feel as good as I do. Maybe it's humor that keeps me going. Wish I could make things at least this easy for you, my pixellated colleague.

[smallcleanrat]

Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.

So sorry. I have survived suicidal stretches. I wake up to guilt and regret every day. Given what I've put myself and others through I am surprised I can feel as good as I do. Maybe it's humor that keeps me going. Wish I could make things at least this easy for you, my pixellated colleague.

Thanks, mahagonny.

I get frustrated when people say not to worry about how long recovery takes or about being a burden on others. Why not? The rest of the world cares about those things.

I just don't know at what point I need to acknowledge that I've crossed a threshold past which some of the major aspirations I had for my life are no longer plausible. It's not so much giving up as accepting reality and adjusting accordingly. I know several people who started out in the performing arts, dreaming of acting careers in film or on Broadway. They all eventually retrained for other occupations after years of not being able to stitch together enough gigs to support themselves. That seems more practical than defeatist to me.

I don't want to give up on science. But I'm ashamed of the fact that, while I'm still pursuing my doctorate, many of my high school/undergrad classmates are professors, engineers, or entrepreneurs. Many also have started families. Some have bought homes. They are functional adults. They have roles which make them valuable to others: parent, spouse, friend, colleague, mentor.

What am I? What value do I contribute to anyone else's life?

When I was in my early twenties, I argued my mom was being unfair when she would call me a hopeless loser who would never amount to anything. It felt acceptable to me to still have significant growth and maturation ahead of you during your twenties. It's normal.

Nowadays, though, I feel it would be harder to counter her. What can I really make of myself if I'm still struggling so much?

[Hegemony]

I think the key is that our lives are not worthwhile in proportion to the amount we produce, the career objectives we achieve, or the number of people we interact with, or even to what degree we help those people or inspire warm and fuzzy feelings in them. I always remember what a determined and happy friend said once: "Your life is for you."

It's true that as academically minded people, we're used to looking at how well we scored on that exam or the grade we earned in that class, and that translates into "What career achievements do I have?" when we graduate into being professionals. And if we want to do those things (actually want to do them and savor them, not just cross them off the list or feel we are "keeping up'), then we should aim at a reasonable amount of them. But there's no finish line where someone says, "You have kept up with the highest performers in your peer group, you are now worthy, you can feel comfortable now." We're used to that finish line (the test scores come out, the class grades come out). We have to adjust to the lack of that as adults.

And we all have a tendency to look at the people who perform best at the easily measured things and compare ourselves to them. The person from the grad school cohort who got the job at Harvard or the big grant or the TV gig, or maybe all three. And the people who come right after that person, with visibly "successful" lives. Of course even those don't tell the whole story. I once talked to someone who deals with a lot of the top Hollywood celebrities. She said, "They're rich and famous, but none of that insulates you from family difficulties, health problems, and emotional pain. Believe me. They have as much of that as anyone. I have talked to them a lot and I know."

But comparing ourselves to the high achievers doesn't give us a true sense of where we stand in the scheme of things, even if we're determined to measure our success in relation to other people. How many people from your high school got derailed and never finished, or finished under a cloud? How many are struggling in part-time grocery store jobs with no benefits? I would imagine more than one would think, because those people are typically less visible on our personal radar. People have children with terrible problems, siblings with terrible problems, a whole range of challenges and difficulties. All of us were led to believe we had bright shiny futures and if they didn't turn out bright and shiny, something was badly wrong (probably with us, but maybe we were uniquely targeted by fate) and it is all bad and a failure. But the truth is that everybody's life is a mixture. (I am leaving out people with genuinely appalling life circumstances, like traumatized refugees and the desperately poor in ravaged countries, and people like that — although they're on the scale of what our lives could have been like too.)

But anyway, everyone's life is a mixture of benefits and hardships. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with us or that we were uniquely singled out. It's the human condition. And the human challenge is to learn to savor the good things, despite the hardships. Because they are there, and they're there for us. Gladioli, ice cream sundaes, bath beads, puppies, a book lent by an old friend, a pillow that is just right, lovely remarks on Twitter (try Tom Cox), whatever pleasures speak to you — all those things are there for us. Despite all the rest of the challenges. The one doesn't cancel out the other, though our response depends a lot on where we turn our attention. It is an act of kindness to ourselves to let ourselves have a space where we relish and savor those things that are there despite how we feel about our CVs or our life achievements. Sometimes we have to bring our attention back to the good things a hundred times a day, because our internal alarm system has set itself on high and is determined to pay attention only to the ways we can feel bad. Turning our attention back to the good is a practice that rewards itself. Hang in there.

[Charlotte]

Struggling a lot lately with self-sabotaging feelings of being too far behind in all aspects of my life to ever catch up. It tinges everything I try to do towards recovery with an air of defeatism, making it difficult to keep pushing to improve.

I've been slow to mature in a lot of ways, and chronic mental and physical health issues have frequently stalled my career and personal development. When I'm well, I make decent progress; people see potential in me and encourage me to aim high. But I can't seem to stay well for long enough stretches of time.  It's seeming less and less likely I'll be able to maintain a research career or raise a family or take care of my parents when they're old. I'm losing hope that I'll ever live a life without this constant fatigue and mental fog I've lived with for the last seven years.

Even if the "real me" is still extant, if I cannot access it, what does it matter?

My PI and doctoral program director have been incredibly encouraging, despite my painfully slowed progress. I feel a desperate need to show them I *can* reach the potential they see in me. I need to prove to them, and to myself, that I can be a scientist. I remember what it was like to be intensely curious, enthusiastic, and diligent. I remember what it was like to get things done, to learn new skills, to mature as an academic and a human being.

I need to experience that again, more than anything. I need to know I've got a future to work towards. I need to know I haven't wasted the time of everyone who believed in me and helped me.

But I don't know how to do that when I'm so unremittingly exhausted.

I wanted to jump in here and give a couple thoughts that may or may not be of use. Take what you need, leave the rest!

Why do you feel that you have been slow to mature in many ways? When I read your posts you are always very thoughtful and articulate and I think you do a lot of introspection. It may be worth directing that towards why you feel that you have been slow to mature. Is it because you have not reached your academic goals yet? Is it because you struggle in some areas that you feel you should have made progress?

Just a reminder in case you were told as a child you were behind: those charts in the developmental textbooks are generalizations and tools for education. They aren't intended to be taken so literally and have been generalized in ways they should not have. Similar to how IQ tests were developed to identify children who might need special education classes and now are used in ways they were not intended.

I think often we have some vague idea in our head of what we should be and this  perpetuates feelings of being less than. This might go along with our idea of having "arrived" in our adulthood too. This looks different for everyone, but generally goes along with the idea of a white picket fence, a good marriage, 2.5 kids, and a family dog.

But most people don't end up there. It's a journey and everyone's journey looks different. Personally, I don't want kids and so I will most likely never meet some people's expectations on what adulthood looks like. I didn't get married until later, I started a career later because of grad school, by my family's standards I was late in everything. I'm also a lot happier than any of my siblings because I took the path that was best for me—not the path they thought was best for me.

But I think it's also worth exploring what your ideal life would be, what would make you feel like you have "arrived" and also explore why you might be feeling that you need to fulfill x, y, and z.

Once you've done that, remember it is your ideal life and because of life being full of unexpected events not many people achieve their ideal life. And also keep in mind that it's normal and healthy for this view of what you want to change as you go through life. Maybe you don't want a dog right now but in ten years you want a dog. Maybe you want to work as a scientist now but in ten years you decide you want to teach. There is no right or wrong here and just as your favorite music might change over time, your ideal life may change as well as you gain experience and learn more about what you want and don't want.

You know when you were a kid and the idea of owning a candy store sounded perfect? Generally, you learn as an adult that there are things you'd rather do. And what you want in your twenties might change in your thirties and forties and so on. It's a normal part of life for your desires and activities to change.

Consider what would make you happy, truly happy. And make sure that you are not including things that you just want so you can "prove" to someone that you are accomplished. I say that because I was highly motivated to finish my PhD to prove something to my family and that was the wrong reason. Turns out, I probably would have been just as happy sticking with a masters degree and not going into academia. So be careful the things on your list are truly for YOU and not to please others or to prove anything.

Because you don't need to prove anything or accomplish anything. You are already a valuable person. You are a worthy person. Now. Not later once you have done x, y, z, but NOW. And you are the real you. Accept yourself as a wonderful person right now and give yourself credit for everything you have already accomplished! It may also help to make notes throughout the day of things you've done. These can range from small items such as got up this morning and showered to big things such as finishing a project at work/school.

Allow yourself to feel pride and allow yourself to acknowledge that right now, you are enough, you are worthy, and you are right where you should be. You aren't behind, you just are. Everyone has goals, everyone can improve, but nobody is behind or less than.

[spork]

Has anyone here ever been told by someone close to them that there are ways in which their suicide would lift a burden and improve the lives of others? Did you find yourself losing trust in the words "I love you" because of it?

Would you ever say such a thing to another person? How bad would things have to be for you to (even fleetingly) wish the other person would suicide? How bad would things have to be for you to explicitly tell that other person you sometimes wish for their suicide?

Have you ever been so stressed by another person's continued existence (family, friend, colleague, student, anyone at all) that you hoped they would kill themselves?

This is a sign of sociopathy is another person. No one should have to put up with anyone who tells them that, or even hints it. SCR, if this is happening to you, as I surmise — it is no wonder that you feel depressed. Someone is making you depressed.  It is a realistically depressing thought that a person who represents themselves as loving you wishes you would harm yourself, or entertains the thought that it would be a benefit if you did so. If this person is so dissatisfied by your presence, why don't they do the mature thing and stop hanging around with you? To wish for more — to think that the solutlon to their problem is for you to harm yourself —  is literally monstrous.

[. . .]

Yes. You're dealing with a sociopath. Sever the relationship.

[. . .]

I argued my mom was being unfair when she would call me a hopeless loser who would never amount to anything.

[. . . ]

Even if the sociopath is your mother.

[mamselle]

I think the key is that our lives are not worthwhile in proportion to the amount we produce, the career objectives we achieve, or the number of people we interact with, or even to what degree we help those people or inspire warm and fuzzy feelings in them. I always remember what a determined and happy friend said once: "Your life is for you."

It's true that as academically minded people, we're used to looking at how well we scored on that exam or the grade we earned in that class, and that translates into "What career achievements do I have?" when we graduate into being professionals. And if we want to do those things (actually want to do them and savor them, not just cross them off the list or feel we are "keeping up'), then we should aim at a reasonable amount of them. But there's no finish line where someone says, "You have kept up with the highest performers in your peer group, you are now worthy, you can feel comfortable now." We're used to that finish line (the test scores come out, the class grades come out). We have to adjust to the lack of that as adults.

And we all have a tendency to look at the people who perform best at the easily measured things and compare ourselves to them. The person from the grad school cohort who got the job at Harvard or the big grant or the TV gig, or maybe all three. And the people who come right after that person, with visibly "successful" lives. Of course even those don't tell the whole story. I once talked to someone who deals with a lot of the top Hollywood celebrities. She said, "They're rich and famous, but none of that insulates you from family difficulties, health problems, and emotional pain. Believe me. They have as much of that as anyone. I have talked to them a lot and I know."

But comparing ourselves to the high achievers doesn't give us a true sense of where we stand in the scheme of things, even if we're determined to measure our success in relation to other people. How many people from your high school got derailed and never finished, or finished under a cloud? How many are struggling in part-time grocery store jobs with no benefits? I would imagine more than one would think, because those people are typically less visible on our personal radar. People have children with terrible problems, siblings with terrible problems, a whole range of challenges and difficulties. All of us were led to believe we had bright shiny futures and if they didn't turn out bright and shiny, something was badly wrong (probably with us, but maybe we were uniquely targeted by fate) and it is all bad and a failure. But the truth is that everybody's life is a mixture. (I am leaving out people with genuinely appalling life circumstances, like traumatized refugees and the desperately poor in ravaged countries, and people like that — although they're on the scale of what our lives could have been like too.)

But anyway, everyone's life is a mixture of benefits and hardships. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with us or that we were uniquely singled out. It's the human condition. And the human challenge is to learn to savor the good things, despite the hardships. Because they are there, and they're there for us. Gladioli, ice cream sundaes, bath beads, puppies, a book lent by an old friend, a pillow that is just right, lovely remarks on Twitter (try Tom Cox), whatever pleasures speak to you — all those things are there for us. Despite all the rest of the challenges. The one doesn't cancel out the other, though our response depends a lot on where we turn our attention. It is an act of kindness to ourselves to let ourselves have a space where we relish and savor those things that are there despite how we feel about our CVs or our life achievements. Sometimes we have to bring our attention back to the good things a hundred times a day, because our internal alarm system has set itself on high and is determined to pay attention only to the ways we can feel bad. Turning our attention back to the good is a practice that rewards itself. Hang in there.

HOF'd.

M.

[smallcleanrat]

Hegemony and Charlotte,

Thanks so much for your very thoughtful posts. I think I'm still processing a lot of your points, but I think I can clarify a few things.

I know I want to do science. There was a period of time earlier in my current doctoral program when the meds were working well enough to get me functioning at about 50-60% normal. This was enough to get through my early coursework and my written quals with good marks, and to earn positive evaluations from the PIs with whom I did rotations. It was the happiest I had been in quite a while. I really do love the science.

When I was in the partial hospitalization program, we would sometimes do an exercise listing "reasons to live". "There's still more science I want to do." was the only thing consistently on my list.

What hurts is being too slowed down by fatigue and brain fog to apply myself and do the things I want to do.

An analogy that comes to mind is of a kid who's been anticipating a family trip to Disneyworld for months. The time for the trip finally arrives, but when they get there, something in the local environment triggers allergies. Kid is still determined to enjoy himself, but is mostly just going through the motions. He can't taste the food due to congestion, the rides just give him headaches, he has to squint at the parade through itching, watering eyes, and the allergy meds make him feel heavy and drowsy, so even walking is a chore. He tried his best to make the most of it, but he really didn't have much fun. And the trip was expensive, so it's unlikely the family will come again any time soon.

Grad school isn't making me unhappy; being too shut down to take advantage of what grad school has to offer is what's making me unhappy. I know what I *want* to do; but I know longer know what I *can* do in the future. So much depends on how much function I can recover.

[mahagonny]

When I was in my early twenties, I argued my mom was being unfair when she would call me a hopeless loser who would never amount to anything. It felt acceptable to me to still have significant growth and maturation ahead of you during your twenties. It's normal.

Nowadays, though, I feel it would be harder to counter her. What can I really make of myself if I'm still struggling so much?

If someone were talking to me that way, I wouldn't be thinking of how to counter them. I would be kicking them out of my mind.
I could easily ask myself all the things you're asking. I'm pretty sure my father thought I lacked ambition and in a sense he was right. I didn't have much of a plan for success other than working relentlessly. But holding standards that I want in my work that I require was the goal, and I've stuck to it through muck and mud. It's not perfect, but at least it's in steady supply.  Like your love of science.
Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, they are not the point (misquoting Frank/Paul Anka).
In my generation (tail end of baby boomers) we declared 'f**k the establishment and its bourgeois ideas of success. What do they know.' It's not any kind of brilliant but it frees you a little.

Try not to judge yourself by some arbitrary external thing.

[Hegemony]

Smallcleanrat, it sounds as if now is the time to grab on to whatever pleasures are most fully possible, even (especially) the small ones. Living the most pleasure-filled life you can right now is probably the best way to handle the period while you're waiting to see what fuller functioning will look like.

I remember once when I'd had a devastating breakup. It came out of the blue and meant I was going to have to change a whole lot of great things very suddenly, like what country I was living in, and I was just reeling. My therapist said, "Whatever you do that brings you some pleasure, do a lot of it." (She obviously did not mean harmful things, like drinking!) I had recently discovered the movies of old-time movie actor Robert Ryan, and so I watched Robert Ryan night and day. I can't remember how many there are now, but I knew then, and I got hold of about 95% of them. Sometimes I fell asleep with a Robert Ryan movie playing, after having watched four in a row. "Whatever gets you through the night," right? So whatever improves your days by a little bit, whether it's old movies, gummy bears, Bee Gees songs, bath beads, crocheting throws, taking pictures of irises, moving all the furniture around, reading all the Narnia books twice in a row, spurning the Narnia books and going for Philip Pullman, buying the coziest bathrobe anyone ever owned, sudoku, massages (or one of those home massage things — I have one! it's great!), high-quality bakery bread — go for it. You shouldn't have to wait to do science properly for maximum pleasure in your life. Notice what provides a little smidge of pleasure and enlarge it as much as possible. Even if it's only partial pleasure, get in the moment as much as possible and dive into that pleasure. Multiple sources are great. It's the least you deserve.