The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[marshwiggle]

I think it's important to note that Derek Chauvin had a long history of complaints against him, approximately once per year during his nineteen years with the Minneapolis PD, many of which involved the use of excessive force, including choking maneuvers, kneeling with full body weight on prone and handcuffed arrestees, etc.

The histories of both Chauvin and Floyd sound like some sort of literary tragedy, where the ultimate end was foreshadowed all along. If either one of them had been a different kind of person, it wouldn't have turned out that way. 

[nebo113]

Folks:  My comment that George Floyd deserved to die was sarcasm.......

[apl68]

Nah.  If someone is casing my neighborhood while everyone is at work, appears to not have a reason to be there, and it is learned from running the vehicle registration they don't live anywhere near there, I want the police to find a reason to chat with that person and inquire. even if that means stopping them for some chicken shit pretextual reason.  I don't want them waiting until there's a verifiable crime that they can prove, such as "well someone just chased this guy out of their house after he broke in and assaulted them, now we have enough to try to stop him!"

I do NOT want the police to mind their own business and not bother with what you might see as inconsequential traffic stops.

Where's your card comrad?  That is basically what you are saying...ironic coming from the right.

That does sound problematic.  People have all kinds of legitimate reasons for visiting places where they don't ordinarily go.  I'm an avid walker.  Whenever I visit a different town or city, I like to go for long strolls around older neighborhoods to look around.  It sometimes occurs to me that others might wonder who this stranger is, especially when I happen to have a camera with me to get architectural photos.  But I've never once had the police called on me or been stopped.  Based on what I've heard from multiple sources, were I black and did this sort of thing, I would probably not go unchallenged. 

Though I believe that the concept of "white privilege" has often been abused (You're not alone in this, mahagonny!), it's clear that it really is a thing when it comes to who gets to have freedom to go anywhere they please without being challenged or harassed.  White people get the benefit of the doubt and generally go unchallenged.  Black people often don't.  It causes understandable resentment, and it places a responsibility on police to tread carefully when it comes to stopping and challenging "suspicious" characters.

[apl68]

I think it's important to note that Derek Chauvin had a long history of complaints against him, approximately once per year during his nineteen years with the Minneapolis PD, many of which involved the use of excessive force, including choking maneuvers, kneeling with full body weight on prone and handcuffed arrestees, etc.

The histories of both Chauvin and Floyd sound like some sort of literary tragedy, where the ultimate end was foreshadowed all along. If either one of them had been a different kind of person, it wouldn't have turned out that way.

It also would not have happened if Chauvin's superiors had decided that his incorrigible pattern of uses of excessive force merited firing.  Descartes is correct that invalid complaints against police are a common form of petty revenge.  But annual complaints over a period of 19 years?  That's not just bad luck.

[mahagonny]

Folks:  My comment that George Floyd deserved to die was sarcasm.......

'I don't deserve this award, but then again, I have arthritis, and I don't deserve that either.' - Jack Benny

There's no objective thing such as 'what a person deserves.' Ask five people and you get five different answers.

No one is saying he deserved to die. If you ask me, he deserved to get beat up by a bystander who didn't like his attitude, but not so badly as to endanger his life, and the bystander would then deserve to be charged with assault and battery, and then be acquitted, because no one would testify, because they also thought Floyd was a jerk.

(on edit)

Though I believe that the concept of "white privilege" has often been abused (You're not alone in this, mahagonny!), it's clear that it really is a thing when it comes to who gets to have freedom to go anywhere they please without being challenged or harassed.  White people get the benefit of the doubt and generally go unchallenged.  Black people often don't.  It causes understandable resentment, and it places a responsibility on police to tread carefully when it comes to stopping and challenging "suspicious" characters.

The police are in the catching criminals business. It's never clear to me at all that most of them want a just society. Their primary concern seems to be success and looking like productive employees. If they apprehend 12 criminals a day and an unfair number of them are black, they still have twelve perps on which they can hang a criminal complaint and fill out an incident report that looks legitimate. So it was a good day at work for them.

[Parasaurolophus]

And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.

[Kron3007]

And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.

Yes, it is weird that mahoganny wrote that in what seems like some sort of support for that mentality when to many that is a big part of the problem. 

They are there to protect and serve, not to be some sort of para-military force to sniff out sleeper cells.   

[smallcleanrat]

Nah.  If someone is casing my neighborhood while everyone is at work, appears to not have a reason to be there, and it is learned from running the vehicle registration they don't live anywhere near there, I want the police to find a reason to chat with that person and inquire. even if that means stopping them for some chicken shit pretextual reason.  I don't want them waiting until there's a verifiable crime that they can prove, such as "well someone just chased this guy out of their house after he broke in and assaulted them, now we have enough to try to stop him!"

I do NOT want the police to mind their own business and not bother with what you might see as inconsequential traffic stops.

Where's your card comrad?  That is basically what you are saying...ironic coming from the right.

That does sound problematic.  People have all kinds of legitimate reasons for visiting places where they don't ordinarily go.  I'm an avid walker.  Whenever I visit a different town or city, I like to go for long strolls around older neighborhoods to look around.  It sometimes occurs to me that others might wonder who this stranger is, especially when I happen to have a camera with me to get architectural photos.  But I've never once had the police called on me or been stopped.  Based on what I've heard from multiple sources, were I black and did this sort of thing, I would probably not go unchallenged. 

Yeah, this part of the discussion reminds me of the man from India taking a morning walk in the Alabama neighborhood where he was visiting his son, daughter-in-law, and baby grandson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpiTY3L6ZzY

From the Wikipedia article:
At 9 a.m., Patel was taking a stroll outside his son's house. A man in the neighborhood called 911 reporting that he saw a suspicious looking man lurking on the area and peering into garages. He described Patel as a "skinny black man wearing a toboggan [sic]." In a few minutes Patel was approached by two police officers on a sidewalk. Officer Eric Parker asked Patel for his identification and Patel responded by saying that he did not know English and was from India repeatedly. The video appears to show Parker throwing Patel to the ground face first ninety seconds after the encounter began. His hands also appeared to be behind his back as he was pushed. Patel's family also allege that Patel had his arm twisted by Parker.

The man suffered a spinal injury and was partially paralyzed.

[marshwiggle]

I think it's important to note that Derek Chauvin had a long history of complaints against him, approximately once per year during his nineteen years with the Minneapolis PD, many of which involved the use of excessive force, including choking maneuvers, kneeling with full body weight on prone and handcuffed arrestees, etc.

The histories of both Chauvin and Floyd sound like some sort of literary tragedy, where the ultimate end was foreshadowed all along. If either one of them had been a different kind of person, it wouldn't have turned out that way.

It also would not have happened if Chauvin's superiors had decided that his incorrigible pattern of uses of excessive force merited firing.  Descartes is correct that invalid complaints against police are a common form of petty revenge.  But annual complaints over a period of 19 years?  That's not just bad luck.

My point was that it's like a lot of Biblical stories; there's not just one "correct" message in it. If Chauvin had been disciplined or fired, it wouldn't have happened. If George Floyd had not engaged in criminal activity, it wouldn't have happened. However, with a habitual criminal and a cop who habitually uses excessive force, it's pretty much a certainty that when they come into contact, it's not going to end well.

[Istiblennius]

You make a good point, SCR. In our community there have been quite a few "but the police have never treated me like that" comments from community members in public forums about how to reform our civic agencies. I've also always been treated positively by police. But I also recognize that my treatment may be different from the treatment others get due to the color of my skin and gender identity. This seems to be where many get tripped up. The police are nice to me, so if they aren't nice to someone else it's because that someone is bad. Couldn't possibly because I won some genetic lottery and was born white, cis, neurotypical, the kind of person they are trained to engage with positively.

There's been a lot of commentary on how Floyd and Chauvin both had problematic histories. But one got due process and the other did not. That's not equal treatment under the law and that's unconstitutional.

I've long wondered too if our nation weren't so awash in guns, perhaps the police might not feel this elevated threat level that they use to justify their extra-judicial killings.

[mahagonny]

And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.

Yes, it is weird that mahoganny wrote that in what seems like some sort of support for that mentality when to many that is a big part of the problem. 

They are there to protect and serve, not to be some sort of para-military force to sniff out sleeper cells.

I thought my analysis was dry, neutral, not in support of the system. That's probably because I don't know what could be done about it.

I have been stopped and interrogated by police at least several times for being in a place that it was thought I shouldn't be. When I was younger I suspect I was stopped for having long hair and being in a different place. After I grew up a little I had short hair and a better attitude and got left alone. A few years ago back when we were all Bush hating liberals a friend of mine residing in Florida had a 'support the troops' sticker on his car. I asked him why. He said 'so the police won't pull me over as much.'
You can't change being black in order to avoid suspicion. I understand this. A black student came to visit me years ago back when I lived in a white neighborhood. The police stopped him. He told me 'I guess they don't know what to do about a black man driving around here.' I understood.
but none of this is any rationale for the sheer stupidity that has infiltrated the media, Hollywood and academia about racial matters. Which, of course, to them, includes every single subject. The only possible good to come of it would be an avalanche of support for republican candidates in 2022.
on edit: oh yeah, and corporate America and professional sports are now getting their spot in the woke virtual signaling floor show. Thankfully a few are coming to the plate to fight this antisocial mania.

[Descartes]

There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.


New topic:  regarding disparate treatment.  Everyone assumes that white people or whatever class you're talking about has never been treated a certain way by cops.  I had a cop be pretty verbally aggressive with me once.  I won't bore you with all the details but I politely held my ground but also did everything I was told, knowing that if I was ultimately arrested the courtroom is the place to argue not the side of the road.  I called him "sir," while also telling him that he was mistaken about his assumptions.  Based on the way he acted and talked, I am pretty confident that if I had acted the way Floyd did or so many others have and become argumentative, started resisting, or otherwise lost my cool, I would have been in handcuffs face down on the street.  This guy was looking for a reason, but I didn't give it to him.  The end result was he drove away somewhat obviously annoyed that he didn't get the arrest he wanted and I drove away and called him an asshole after the fact.  Nobody ended up in a fight and nobody died.

[marshwiggle]

New topic:  regarding disparate treatment.  Everyone assumes that white people or whatever class you're talking about has never been treated a certain way by cops.  I had a cop be pretty verbally aggressive with me once.  I won't bore you with all the details but I politely held my ground but also did everything I was told, knowing that if I was ultimately arrested the courtroom is the place to argue not the side of the road.  I called him "sir," while also telling him that he was mistaken about his assumptions.  Based on the way he acted and talked, I am pretty confident that if I had acted the way Floyd did or so many others have and become argumentative, started resisting, or otherwise lost my cool, I would have been in handcuffs face down on the street.  This guy was looking for a reason, but I didn't give it to him.  The end result was he drove away somewhat obviously annoyed that he didn't get the arrest he wanted and I drove away and called him an asshole after the fact.  Nobody ended up in a fight and nobody died.

An interesting prespective fromGlenn Loury & John McWhorter

[Kron3007]

There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.


New topic:  regarding disparate treatment.  Everyone assumes that white people or whatever class you're talking about has never been treated a certain way by cops.  I had a cop be pretty verbally aggressive with me once.  I won't bore you with all the details but I politely held my ground but also did everything I was told, knowing that if I was ultimately arrested the courtroom is the place to argue not the side of the road.  I called him "sir," while also telling him that he was mistaken about his assumptions.  Based on the way he acted and talked, I am pretty confident that if I had acted the way Floyd did or so many others have and become argumentative, started resisting, or otherwise lost my cool, I would have been in handcuffs face down on the street.  This guy was looking for a reason, but I didn't give it to him.  The end result was he drove away somewhat obviously annoyed that he didn't get the arrest he wanted and I drove away and called him an asshole after the fact.  Nobody ended up in a fight and nobody died.

I am white and do not assume that at all.  I have had cops give me a hard time, but have also seen how they treat me shift as I have grown older.  For example, when I was a teen they would regularly stop and search us, which is technically illegal but what could we do.  I would now refuse out of principle, but I had friends at the time have bad outcomes when they did so back then (even as white males).  This alone shows me that they do indeed treat you differently based on your appearance.

The real question in your situation is how would they have treated you if you were not a white male?  Perhaps they would have found a reason to escalate despite your cooperation, or perhaps not.  Regardless, the fact that you have been given a hard time and ultimately released without incident does not really provide the support you seem to think it does.

[apl68]

There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.

Some police reformers have made this connection as well.  I'd like to see them doing more of this, and de-escalating the "defund the police" rhetoric.  A specific, do-able solution can go a lot farther in helping than wild rhetoric that will only have the effect of provoking a backlash against efforts to deal with a legitimate problem.