The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[Parasaurolophus]

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

[marshwiggle]

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

Obviously Trump is not the only one who can make gross exaggerations and conflations.......

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.

In the case of Regis Korchinski-Paquet, her family called 911 because she was in a domestic dispute with her brother (which the police diffused). I will be fascinated to see what that investigation concludes, since her family's lawyer is upset that details are getting leaked to the press because it seems the tragedy was a result of her mental illness, she barricaded herself on a balcony and died trying to jump to another balcony.

Do problems exist? Of course. But inflammatory hyperbole on either side doesn't help, since it fires up the public to not even listen to the evidence about what actually happens. Everyone just sits in their own echo chamber.

[Wahoo Redux]

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

Obviously Trump is not the only one who can make gross exaggerations and conflations.......

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.

In the case of Regis Korchinski-Paquet, her family called 911 because she was in a domestic dispute with her brother (which the police diffused). I will be fascinated to see what that investigation concludes, since her family's lawyer is upset that details are getting leaked to the press because it seems the tragedy was a result of her mental illness, she barricaded herself on a balcony and died trying to jump to another balcony.

Do problems exist? Of course. But inflammatory hyperbole on either side doesn't help, since it fires up the public to not even listen to the evidence about what actually happens. Everyone just sits in their own echo chamber.

What happens when we no longer trust the police or their ability to police themselves.

[Parasaurolophus]

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.

I wasn't including the April incidents. The two deaths and the non-lethal incidents of police brutality have been since May 27, and most have been in the last week. All are unacceptable.

In any case, the more important lists are these, so I'll repost them so they aren't lost:

Jacobin has two (incomplete) compendia of police violence during these protests. I recommend reading them, but you should be warned that it's really, really disturbing.

Compendium 1
Compendium 2

[apl68]

"Killing sprees"? To what are you referring?

The killing of Chantel Moore (shot during a wellness check) and the highly questionable death of Regis Korchinski-Paquet (who was alone with police in her apartment and fell 24 stories). (If we go back to April, Winnipeg police shot and killed three Indigenous men in a period of 10 days, and another man in the doorway to his house.)

Sure, fine, it's not a "spree". But it's a lot in just a few days, especially when it's obvious that any such incidents will be high-profile, and it's been coupled with a fair bit of police brutality, also in the last few days (e.g. the Laval man pulled out of his car by his dreadlocks and beaten, the Nunavut hit with a moving police truck's door, the Kelowna man punched at least ten times while two other officers restrained him, etc.).

Obviously Trump is not the only one who can make gross exaggerations and conflations.......

"Few days" = two month period, and the locations mentioned span the second largest country by landmass on the planet.

In the case of Regis Korchinski-Paquet, her family called 911 because she was in a domestic dispute with her brother (which the police diffused). I will be fascinated to see what that investigation concludes, since her family's lawyer is upset that details are getting leaked to the press because it seems the tragedy was a result of her mental illness, she barricaded herself on a balcony and died trying to jump to another balcony.

Do problems exist? Of course. But inflammatory hyperbole on either side doesn't help, since it fires up the public to not even listen to the evidence about what actually happens. Everyone just sits in their own echo chamber.

What happens when we no longer trust the police or their ability to police themselves.

The sort of "inflammatory hyperbole" that marshwiggle is talking about here still seems most unhelpful at a time of elevated passions.  Are you saying that inflammatory hyperbole is justified here because "THEY STARTED IT!!!!"?

Although it hasn't been the norm, there has been some hyperbole and drawing with an overly broad brush in places on this thread.  Police officers in general have been characterized in posts above as violent brutes, as sadists, and as overpaid morons.  That looks like "Othering" to me, and Othering of that sort has never seemed fair or conducive to understanding.  It ignores certain parts of the narrative of the past week.  Like the officers and police chiefs in several cities who have treated protestors respectfully and shown solidarity with them.  Or the community-wide solidarity events, involving police and other civic officials and a variety of citizens, held recently in some towns, including ours just last night. 

Chris Rock, quoted above, was right in saying that police abuses in some departments can't be shrugged off as just a few bad apples.  If we've got bad apples in the police barrel, then we need get serious about cleaning out the barrel.  Characterizing all the apples in the barrel as bad by association is not helpful, though.

[mamselle]

And the image of Obama hosting a black professor and a white policeman for a beer at the White House keeps coming back to me as another effort to show a better path.

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/24/obama-race-row-beer

had one article on this;

   https://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/30/harvard.arrest.beers/

had another.

I realize there was more, later fallout but the effort to bring about conversation instead of confrontation is the main point here.

M.

[Wahoo Redux]

I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.

But it is hard to see, for instance, a 75-yo man pushed to the sidewalk, badly injured, and police spokespeople claiming "he tripped," and then learning that the entire 'voluntary' force unit quitting in "disgust" at the treatment of their fellow officers.

I have great respect and gratitude toward our police.  We see a police culture and a mentality, however, of police using force apparently with impunity (see the "light'em up" video?) and protectionism that needs to be addressed.  The cell phone has made this apparent. 

[marshwiggle]

I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.

But it is hard to see, for instance, a 75-yo man pushed to the sidewalk, badly injured, and police spokespeople claiming "he tripped," and then learning that the entire 'voluntary' force unit quitting in "disgust" at the treatment of their fellow officers.

I have great respect and gratitude toward our police.  We see a police culture and a mentality, however, of police using force apparently with impunity (see the "light'em up" video?) and protectionism that needs to be addressed.  The cell phone has made this apparent.

I'm absolutely in favour of bodycams and dashcams. Those should be standard equipment.

[Parasaurolophus]

I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.

There have, however, been a number of instances of police who kneeled with protesters turning around and attacking or gassing them shortly after. That I'm aware of, this has happened in Detroit, NYC, Orlando, and Portland, and yesterday I saw reports of the same from friends somewhere in Texas (but the where escapes me now).

Although it hasn't been the norm, there has been some hyperbole and drawing with an overly broad brush in places on this thread.  Police officers in general have been characterized in posts above as violent brutes, as sadists, and as overpaid morons.  That looks like "Othering" to me, and Othering of that sort has never seemed fair or conducive to understanding.  It ignores certain parts of the narrative of the past week.  Like the officers and police chiefs in several cities who have treated protestors respectfully and shown solidarity with them.  Or the community-wide solidarity events, involving police and other civic officials and a variety of citizens, held recently in some towns, including ours just last night. 

Chris Rock, quoted above, was right in saying that police abuses in some departments can't be shrugged off as just a few bad apples.  If we've got bad apples in the police barrel, then we need get serious about cleaning out the barrel.  Characterizing all the apples in the barrel as bad by association is not helpful, though.

There's an awful lot of bad apples out there right now, doing some really disturbing things. Check out the two links I provided upthread. They only scratch the surface. The police brutality going on now is widespread, and it's being very broadly enabled, including by superior officers who turn a blind eye not just to what they're seeing, but to acts like covering up identification numbers (which, incidentally, indicates pre-meditation). When you have that many bad apples, you're better off starting over from scratch.

I'm absolutely in favour of bodycams and dashcams. Those should be standard equipment.

Sure. But they don't solve the problem, and, frankly, they can't. (It also doesn't help when the cameras are deliberately or inadvertently switched off, despite their being turned on being legally mandatory.)

[kiana]

I've posted a couple links to police walking and kneeling with protesters, and talked about my own good experiences with police.

There have, however, been a number of instances of police who kneeled with protesters turning around and attacking or gassing them shortly after. That I'm aware of, this has happened in Detroit, NYC, Orlando, and Portland, and yesterday I saw reports of the same from friends somewhere in Texas (but the where escapes me now).

Buffalo as well; they knelt Wednesday, then 50+ resigned from the special force today (still employed apparently) ... over the discipline for the ones who knocked down the old guy.

[marshwiggle]

I'm absolutely in favour of bodycams and dashcams. Those should be standard equipment.

Sure. But they don't solve the problem, and, frankly, they can't. (It also doesn't help when the cameras are deliberately or inadvertently switched off, despite their being turned on being legally mandatory.)

They don't solve the problem, but when they are used, they provide solid evidence that goes beyond verbal testimony of witnesses. Video is powerful, as is obvious from recent cases including George Floyd.

[Economizer]

The realty is that an incalculable number of circumstances are faced by public safety personnel and their organizations, top to bottom. Currently the best efforts to acceptably answer to every circumstance are directed at good recruiting, good training and refresher training, good and prompt communication by superior officers and among the ranks. Then, into the life of officers comes the need of police action for which calls to apply all that can be gained by preparations, all at once, and more.

Who is the top dog to in making or directing immediate action. Area commander, watch commander, Chief, Public Safety Chief (that could be the Police or the Fire Chief), Politicians, Citizen Review Boards? No, it is the officer or officers responding. What happens then, through proper incidents accounts, be they true or untrue, augmented by citizen, electronic, and media perspectives, matters may then enter the province of corrective and judicial actions involving officers, victims, perpetrators, etc.

Having stated the above, which is my view point, I believe all of the burning, looting, disrespect for public safety actions and personnel, will damage just and fair proper process of social, political, and legal remedy. Who wants that? I'd really like to know!

[Wahoo Redux]

I believe all of the burning, looting, disrespect for public safety actions and personnel, will damage just and fair proper process of social, political, and legal remedy. Who wants that? I'd really like to know!

Nobody but the criminals.

We also don't want cops behaving like criminals.

[Economizer]

Definitely. Maybe there are criminals that wish police to be thought to be criminals though. Those could be labeled insurrrctionists and several other terms of rebellion. I might be getting a bit out of the limits of my vocabulary with that remark.

[mahagonny]

I believe all of the burning, looting, disrespect for public safety actions and personnel, will damage just and fair proper process of social, political, and legal remedy. Who wants that? I'd really like to know!

Nobody but the criminals.

We also don't want cops behaving like criminals.

In some case the police and/or governors and mayors choose to let some amount of  looting go on. I believe it is a tactical decision. Sacrifice something here in order to avoid the perception that they are being heavy handed by sending everyone who want to demonstrate home, over there.