The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[Parasaurolophus]

I don't have the energy to go through the whole thing in detail right now. But I do want to say two things:

Even if we assume it's true that Floyd was slowly dying from a fentanyl overdose (and I don't think we should, but let's roll with it), that's not relevant. It's not relevant because (1) the main general issue is police brutality, i.e. the unjustified use of force by state actors, of which this case is still a clear-cut example, and (2) even in cases where death is overdetermined, we care about and charge proximal causes of death.

On (2), imagine what would happen if someone had ingested a lethal dose of a slow-acting poison, and you shot them in the head. Or if you're in the army, an enemy combatant has sustained what are clearly life-ending wounds, and you accelerate the process by shooting them. Or if you're a doctor and can see some patients are slowly dying of absolutely terminal cancer, and you hasten the process. In every case, you're charged with murder (also: the first case is a thought experiment, but the other two are based on real life cases). Overdetermination is not an effective defence when you're the proximal cause.

[mamselle]

Agreed.

If someone says they can't breathe, you get off their neck.

Unless you're intending to kill them.

M.

[mahagonny]

Agreed.

If someone says they can't breathe, you get off their neck.

Unless you're intending to kill them.

M.

He didn't believe him, apparently.

If you were trying to kill someone you wouldn't also call for an ambulance.

[Parasaurolophus]

He didn't believe him, apparently.

If you were trying to kill someone you wouldn't also call for an ambulance.

You might well, in an effort to give yourself plausible deniability.

More importantly: it's entirely consistent with culpable homicide and criminal negligence causing death.

[writingprof]

It's not worth arguing about.  Just bookmark this thread so that you have an explanation when Chauvin is acquitted.

"But I already have an explanation.  It's raaaaaaaaaaacism!"

As I said, it's not worth arguing about.

[jimbogumbo]

Also, the new video is somewhat exculpatory.  We know this in part because no one's reporting on it.  (It damages the narrative and thus must be suppressed.)  However, if anyone wants a link and commentary, I recommend Jason Whitlock:

https://www.outkick.com/george-floyd-bodycam-footage-shows-it-wasnt-about-race-will-nbactivists-actually-admit-that/

Let's all try to refrain from calling him an Uncle Tom, please.

CNN did quite an extensive dissection of the video last night. You might not have agreed with the dissection, but they certainly reported on it.

[mahagonny]

The reluctance to believe George Floyd when he said he couldn't breathe could be the result of:

Confusion about the fact that he was protesting he couldn't breathe minutes earlier in the squad car despite the fact that he was talking non-stop, as well as general hysterical protesting, though he was not being brutalized.
He claimed he was claustrophobic but when they first encountered him he was in the front seat of a very small car.
He was suspected of passing fake money.
He claimed he wasn't high which obviously wasn't true (later borne out by the autopsy.)
Lack of knowledge about the symptoms of fentanyl and amphetamine overdose.

When you've known a guy five minutes and he's already told you a handful of whoppers, he's not truth teller.

[writingprof]

Also, the new video is somewhat exculpatory.  We know this in part because no one's reporting on it.  (It damages the narrative and thus must be suppressed.)  However, if anyone wants a link and commentary, I recommend Jason Whitlock:

https://www.outkick.com/george-floyd-bodycam-footage-shows-it-wasnt-about-race-will-nbactivists-actually-admit-that/

Let's all try to refrain from calling him an Uncle Tom, please.

CNN did quite an extensive dissection of the video last night. You might not have agreed with the dissection, but they certainly reported on it.

Thank you.  That's good to know.  I don't watch television news.  What was their conclusion?

[kaysixteen]

Chauvin is probably a bad actor, certainly his record on the cops makes me wonder what the hell he was still doing on the cops, and if he absolutely positively still had to be on the job, what the hell was the dept thinking when they made him a training officer for rookies who had been on the job for three days?   And the training, in any case, was awful-- what made anyone think sitting on the guy's chest was acceptable?  That said, Floyd was not necessarily a good actor either.   What concerns me greatly is Chauvin's ability to get a fair trial...  I think it impossible he will be able to get one in or around Minneapolis, and his trial will probably have to be moved somewhere up in the state's north country, which would probably end up meaning an all-white rural jury.  He is almost certainly currently overcharged, anyhow, as the prosecutors would have to prove an intent to kill him, whereas there are other charges that would be much easier for them to prove.  All this, of course, is not necessarily related to the larger question of what changes obviously need to be made to the Minneapolis PD specifically, and to many if not most American PDs, especially urban ones, as well (think Springfield, MA, for an especially horrid case).   But we must not give in to the idea that every time a cop kills a black guy, the black guy was unjustifiably killed (think, for instance, of the case in Atlanta recently where the drunk dude assaulted one of the officers trying to arrest him after he had failed the breathalyzer test, stole the man's tazer, started to run away, then pointed the tazer back at the other cop, getting himself shot in the process.)   Overreaction on the issue of police reform is an issue that Drumpf would be especially keen to use against Biden (who thankfully has not taken the bait), and is but one of the issues that the Democrats need to be very careful with over the next three months, lest they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Wahoo Redux]

I watched the leaked footage and, you know, I'm not sure there is any exoneration there. 

Floyd is irrational and probably high.  He is also scared, as I think are a lot of African-Americans when dealing with police, rightly or wrongly.  And the police, no doubt following procedure, repeatedly threaten him, shout at him, point a gun at him, cuff him and force him into the back of police car as he complains he is claustrophobic.  Again, I am sure these are procedures.  I am sure police are trained to perform this way.  But Floyd is begging and doing his best to at least be polite.  He's terrified.  Where's the humanity and empathy for an American citizen, no matter how flawed?

If anything, I suspect this footage is going to make people even angrier. 

Is it possible to train police to deescalate?  Must they manhandle suspects when they are obviously not armed?  Nobody tried to calm Floyd down? 

No, the police are just as culpable.  Maybe even more.

[mahagonny]

Even if we assume it's true that Floyd was slowly dying from a fentanyl  goofball (fentanyl and methamphetamine) overdose (and I don't think we should, but let's roll with it),

I think it's very likely. In the video he's in the squad car complaining that he can't breathe. Just minutes before he was in the convenience store trying to buy cigarettes. You wouldn't be thinking about cigarettes if you can't breathe. It looks like things were getting worse quickly for Mr. Floyd.

I watched the leaked footage and, you know, I'm not sure there is any exoneration there. 

Floyd is irrational and probably high.  He is also scared, as I think are a lot of African-Americans when dealing with police, rightly or wrongly.

Criminals of any color may be scared when dealing with police because they expected to get away with a crime and now it looks like they didn't. Black people are not the only criminals experiencing fear when they get apprehended. Of course, if you're overdosing too, it's even worse.

Is it possible to train police to deescalate?  Must they manhandle suspects when they are obviously not armed?  Nobody tried to calm Floyd down? 

De-escalate? Try to calm him down? He is anything but cooperative. He could not keep quiet or follow the simplest orders. A constant tirade of protesting. 'I'm not that kind of guy.' 'Please.' A pretty dramatic performance. Probably knew he was being filmed.
The reason to draw the gun was probably that they had already heard reports of him acting erratically and agitatedly when they arrived.

If anything, I suspect this footage is going to make people even angrier. 

You might be right about this. People will watch the same video and see very different things. Some will pay more attention to the media talking over the video in narration, drowning out what's actually happening. Of the several that I viewed, only Candace Owens' video lets you actually watch and listen. The thing that amazes me is the media have already been watching this night-of-hell for the rookie policemen and all most of them have to say is 'racism!" Good for their ratings I guess.

Where's the humanity and empathy for an American citizen, no matter how flawed?

If you missed the five day funeral, you can still get your George Floyd T-shirt or coffee mug. And perhaps you'll get a webinar showing you how to stop teaching like a racist.

[mahagonny]

con't

Tucker Carlson: 'The officers ask Floyd 'are you on something?' Floyd: "no." Police: 'Because you're acting erratic.' There's a reason police ask that. He was clearly in distress.'
I would add the question if the police had known from that moment that Floyd was taking fentanyl could his life have been saved?

Attorney General of Minnesota hid the video, as he tells it, to strengthen the prosecution. Changing history, as Carlson accurately says, and bringing about a cultural revolution.

Considering the disservice done to the Americans watching the news and trying to understand what happened, I think Carlson was pretty subdued.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-reaction-leaked-george-floyd-footage

Chauvin is probably a bad actor, certainly his record on the cops makes me wonder what the hell he was still doing on the cops, and if he absolutely positively still had to be on the job, what the hell was the dept thinking when they made him a training officer for rookies who had been on the job for three days?   And the training, in any case, was awful-- what made anyone think sitting on the guy's chest was acceptable?  That said, Floyd was not necessarily a good actor either.   What concerns me greatly is Chauvin's ability to get a fair trial...  I think it impossible he will be able to get one in or around Minneapolis, and his trial will probably have to be moved somewhere up in the state's north country, which would probably end up meaning an all-white rural jury. He is almost certainly currently overcharged, anyhow, as the prosecutors would have to prove an intent to kill him, whereas there are other charges that would be much easier for them to prove.  All this, of course, is not necessarily related to the larger question of what changes obviously need to be made to the Minneapolis PD specifically, and to many if not most American PDs, especially urban ones, as well (think Springfield, MA, for an especially horrid case).   But we must not give in to the idea that every time a cop kills a black guy, the black guy was unjustifiably killed (think, for instance, of the case in Atlanta recently where the drunk dude assaulted one of the officers trying to arrest him after he had failed the breathalyzer test, stole the man's tazer, started to run away, then pointed the tazer back at the other cop, getting himself shot in the process.)   Overreaction on the issue of police reform is an issue that Drumpf would be especially keen to use against Biden (who thankfully has not taken the bait), and is but one of the issues that the Democrats need to be very careful with over the next three months, lest they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Having bowed to pressure to move the charge up to murder in the second degree.

(Italic) Swedes? Can't we trust them to be impartial?

[mahagonny]

deleted

[jimbogumbo]

Also, the new video is somewhat exculpatory.  We know this in part because no one's reporting on it.  (It damages the narrative and thus must be suppressed.)  However, if anyone wants a link and commentary, I recommend Jason Whitlock:

https://www.outkick.com/george-floyd-bodycam-footage-shows-it-wasnt-about-race-will-nbactivists-actually-admit-that/

Let's all try to refrain from calling him an Uncle Tom, please.

CNN did quite an extensive dissection of the video last night. You might not have agreed with the dissection, but they certainly reported on it.

Thank you.  That's good to know.  I don't watch television news.  What was their conclusion?

Basically what Wahoo stated just below our posts.

[Wahoo Redux]

Tucker Carlson and one loses all legitimacy.