The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[mahagonny]

So 'innocent until proven guilty' is strictly how the law works, with no expectation that society gives any weight to it?

I mean, yeah.

Here's your trophy for endorsing things like that. Lisa Durden was fired for her harsh comments against white people who objected to a blacks only event on campus. The law of the land is she has the rights to free speech, but she didn't have tenure, so she can just go fuck off. What do we care what's in the constitution?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Durden

Of course, thanks to George Floyd, Derek Chauvin and co. we've had a cultural revolution since then so they wouldn't dare firing Durden for that now. So I guess you guys are winning for now.

[spork]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

New York Times analysis of newly-released video:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html.

In my non-legally binding opinion, Floyd would almost certainly be alive today if he had not had an encounter with the police. The entire episode is a total fuck-up by the officers involved from start to finish.

[pigou]

Abstracting away from this particular instance, it just doesn't strike me as a reasonable measure to kneel on someone's neck or generally to apply this level of force to take someone into custody, especially over a non-violent offense. That is, this would have been a mistake had he survived and it would have been a mistake had he died of entirely natural causes.

Less aggressive methods would put more officers at risk, but the key difference is that police get paid to take on the risks of the job. Civilians who are subject to the use of force by police do not (and the ability to sue the city by the family is much more constrained). So if changes in policing tactics make it more likely that officers get injured or killed in the line of duty, we can compensate them for the extra risk by paying them more. This happens all the time in the private sector: some jobs are more dangerous than others that require the same qualifications, and so people who do them get paid more.

[dismalist]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

[mahagonny]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

Killing a white perpetrator would not make the national news unless there are unusual things about the encounter. Police like colleges have to worry about damaging publicity.

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

New York Times analysis of newly-released video:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/george-floyd-body-cam-full-video.html.

In my non-legally binding opinion, Floyd would almost certainly be alive today if he had not had an encounter with the police. The entire episode is a total fuck-up by the officers involved from start to finish.

They are shown saying things like 'get your fucking hands on the wheel' early in the encounter, which is not deescalating, but is combative and unprofessional. So whoever said they might have deescalated more effectively was right about that, to that extent, I would agree. And of course, the pinning him to the ground is suspect. And why didn't the ambulance arrive sooner?
I can read your post without getting my dander up because you have refrained from saying
(1) you accept my assessment or you're being racist
(2) middle-aged people who have advanced heart disease may take lethal doses of street drugs without danger
(3) Floyd was cooperative. He really wasn't, although he was a bit provoked.

It is hard to figure out from here, but your opinion and how you say it are worth listening to.

[ergative]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

[apl68]

Chicago is now experiencing rioting and looting triggered by an incident in which police shot a man who had fired at them first.  What's most disturbing about this is that the local BLM has rallied in support of those arrested for looting.  One BLM organizer described the loot as "reparations."

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/black-lives-matter-holds-rally-supporting-individuals-arrested-in-chicago-looting-monday/2320365/

If we have much more of this sort of thing in other cities, it is going to significantly improve President Trump's currently dwindling chances of reelection.  Which would constitute a mammoth own goal score by BLM.

[mahagonny]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

Hmm...how many white people drive into black neighborhoods to buy their drugs, then go back to their safe suburban home for party time. That would be a 'white guilt' that has a reason.

[marshwiggle]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

Hmm...how many white people drive into black neighborhoods to buy their drugs, then go back to their safe suburban home for party time. That would be a 'white guilt' that has a reason.

This suggests that white gangs and criminal organizations should be much more successful than black ones, since the lower enforcement in white neighbourhoods should give them much more freedom to operate. Eventually the black organizations should pretty much be eliminated since they won't be able to compete. (And it will be safer for black people to go to white neighbourhoods to buy their drugs.)

[mahagonny]

Readers who are in law enforcement would know better than me, but my guess would be there are more sales to be made quicker by concentrating your operation in an urban area.
I had a black friend years ago, now deceased, elderly. He said 'every morning when I walk the dog I see the dope dealers. I know all of them. I say hello to them.' Good thing he had the dog.  And he always dressed in old funky clothes. I knew he could afford nice clothes.

[writingprof]

Hmm...how many white people drive into black neighborhoods to buy their drugs, then go back to their safe suburban home for party time. That would be a 'white guilt' that has a reason.

I don't know. White people are so woke now that it wouldn't occur to most of us to look for drugs in a black neighborhood. That's profiling!

[dismalist]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

The vast majority of police time is allocated by 911 calls. Thus, it's people in black neighborhoods who are calling for help.

[jimbogumbo]

African-Americans are killed by police at rates far higher than that of whites.

This is true when police killings are compared to population sizes. It is not true when killings are compared to the crime rates of the relevant populations. Looks like whites, not blacks, are killed at a greater rate than their population size would indicate.

The problem with normalizing by crime rates is that the crime rates are determined by arrests and so on--and police absolutely do not patrol and arrest and detain white people and white neighborhoods at the same rates as black neighborhoods. The book Weapons of Math Destruction has a chapter about how this cycle perpetuates itself: black neighborhoods have more stops and searches, and so more drugs or whatever are found---even though people are using them at the same rates in white and black neighborhoods---which means that black neighborhoods are tagged as being more crime-ful, requiring more police patrols and searches, and so on.

The vast majority of police time is allocated by 911 calls. Thus, it's people in black neighborhoods who are calling for help.

Do you have a source for this? Curious, as that is not what I would have thought at all.

[dismalist]

Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/, near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/.

[jimbogumbo]

Yeah. I got the very sentence from here https://theintercept.com/2019/01/31/arrests-policing-vera-institute-of-justice/, near the bottom. The article sympathetically  cites the Vera Institute, which is highly critical of current policing methods. The same statement is made by Heather MacDonald in her The War on Cops. In my googling I have not found underlying data, but have found descriptions of how NYC allocates police, and it is by 911 calls https://www.givingcompass.org/article/improving-the-allocation-of-police-officers/.

Thanks! The reason I was skeptical (and still am somewhat) is the vast amount of police officers I see not responding to 911, but rather doing rather mundane things. I have no doubt that large cities are probably different from the vast majority of what officers do. I'll look more closely.