The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[marshwiggle]

I'm not a medical doctor, but I'm pretty sure that if someone is having trouble breathing, the prescribed course of treatment is not kneeling on their neck for nine minutes.

If it is, they didn't tell us about it in my most recent CPR course.


EDIT: Just to be clear, I think that if you accept the premise that he was having trouble breathing beforehand and he asked to lie on the ground, that actually makes things worse for Chauvin.

The point is that the main evidence for how much pressure Chauvin was applying to George Floyd's neck was the trouble George Floyd had in breathing. If he was having serious breathing problems before, it's not a reliable indicator of how much force was being applied.

There are professionals (stunt people, fight co-ordinators) who make a career out of making relatively safe actions appear highly dangerous or even lethal. The point is that how dangerous or painful a situation appears to be in the view of an observer is not the same thing as how dangerous or painful it is to the person experiencing it, and that can go in either direction.

If he was having serious problems before, then refusing aid and instead doing something that increased the problem is not particularly helpful to Chauvin's case.

If Chauvin could tell the complaints were legitimate, I agree. If he thought they were just attempts to get attention from bystanders, (i.e. that the problem wasn't real), then he wouldn't have thought any aid was required.

[jimbogumbo]

Given the trial testimony so far, I'd be very surprised if Chauvin is not convicted of a murder charge. The defense has no defense.

Though police shootings often involve a lot of rush to judgement, this one has seemed very open-and-shut from the start.

Testimony from the physician who performed the autopsy: https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/derek-chauvin-trial-04-09-21/h_03cda59afac6532a0fb8ed48244e44a0

The one thing that made me go "Wait! What?" was the video from inside the police car, before George Floyd was on the ground, and with no restraints on his chest, throat, or face, where he's already saying "I can't breathe." Since I'm not a doctor, I have no idea how severe the respiratory problems might have been due to the drugs and pre-existing health conditions. Until I saw that video I was as convinced as anyone else that the only cause of his suffocation was Chauvin. I'd like to hear from medical experts that have no axe to grind either way how serious the breathing problems were likely to have been before Chauvin got involved.

[jimbogumbo]

More detail (not the doctor in the video at the Top of the page-the medical examiner): https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/09/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-day-10/index.html

[mahagonny]

I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.

[apl68]

I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.

Mahagonny, you've got to let this go.  George Floyd seems to have been a sorry excuse for a human being, but the police in this country don't have the authority to kill sorry excuses for human beings through egregious use of excessive force.  That's what is at issue in this trial.  That and sending a clear message that bad cops like Derek Chauvin need to be identified and fired before their misbehavior goes as far as actually killing somebody.

I get it.  You're annoyed that somebody like George Floyd is being venerated in some circles as a martyr.  You're annoyed by some of the extremes of rhetoric that have been voiced around the case.  Frankly I am too.

But you know what?  All this wouldn't have happened if Derek Chauvin's superiors had been on the ball and had booted him from the force before things went this far.  If he can be seen to get his just desserts, and police forces around the country can be seen to have learned something from the whole debacle, then we'll be less likely to see crooks-turned-martyrs and intemperate anti-police rhetoric in the future.

[pgher]

There are no perfect victims. But passing a fake $20 is not a capital offense, and if it were, police on the street do not have the authority to be judge, jury, and executioner.

[mahagonny]

I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.

Mahagonny, you've got to let this go.  George Floyd seems to have been a sorry excuse for a human being, but the police in this country don't have the authority to kill sorry excuses for human beings through egregious use of excessive force.  That's what is at issue in this trial.  That and sending a clear message that bad cops like Derek Chauvin need to be identified and fired before their misbehavior goes as far as actually killing somebody.

I get it.  You're annoyed that somebody like George Floyd is being venerated in some circles as a martyr.  You're annoyed by some of the extremes of rhetoric that have been voiced around the case.  Frankly I am too.

But you know what?  All this wouldn't have happened if Derek Chauvin's superiors had been on the ball and had booted him from the force before things went this far.  If he can be seen to get his just desserts, and police forces around the country can be seen to have learned something from the whole debacle, then we'll be less likely to see crooks-turned-martyrs and intemperate anti-police rhetoric in the future.

Or the whole thing wouldn't have happened if the media cared about white victims of police brutality. Because there have been many over the years, and no one knows who they are. The change you hope for is not incidence of police brutality driven. It's media-loves-racism-stories driven. 
I can let it go, but the annoyance with the media coverage of the whole thing  is going to quietly continue within middle America. And the willfully polarizing antics of the NYT, CNN et al will continue. Most of the media coverage after the verdict will be in step with just more iterations of the bullying 'no one may state that "all lives matter. It is unacceptable; the correct pronouncement is Black Lives Matter"' And that will never improve race relations.

[apl68]

I wonder how many Minnesotans were mugged or burglarized by George Floyd during his career and then also contributed to the $27 million settlement that went to his family and their lawyers, and will be walking past some sort of public monument to him on their way to work.

Mahagonny, you've got to let this go.  George Floyd seems to have been a sorry excuse for a human being, but the police in this country don't have the authority to kill sorry excuses for human beings through egregious use of excessive force.  That's what is at issue in this trial.  That and sending a clear message that bad cops like Derek Chauvin need to be identified and fired before their misbehavior goes as far as actually killing somebody.

I get it.  You're annoyed that somebody like George Floyd is being venerated in some circles as a martyr.  You're annoyed by some of the extremes of rhetoric that have been voiced around the case.  Frankly I am too.

But you know what?  All this wouldn't have happened if Derek Chauvin's superiors had been on the ball and had booted him from the force before things went this far.  If he can be seen to get his just desserts, and police forces around the country can be seen to have learned something from the whole debacle, then we'll be less likely to see crooks-turned-martyrs and intemperate anti-police rhetoric in the future.

Or the whole thing wouldn't have happened if the media cared about white victims of police brutality. Because there have been many over the years, and no one knows who they are. The change you hope for is not incidence of police brutality driven. It's media-loves-racism-stories driven. 
I can let it go, but the annoyance with the media coverage of the whole thing  is going to quietly continue within middle America. And the willfully polarizing antics of the NYT, CNN et al will continue. Most of the media coverage after the verdict will be in step with just more iterations of the bullying 'no one may state that "all lives matter. It is unacceptable; the correct pronouncement is Black Lives Matter"' And that will never improve race relations.

I'm inclined to agree with you there, actually.  But griping about it all the time isn't going to fix anything. 

I've always loved walking.  I walk for hours each week around the streets and parks of our town.  In my walks I am often annoyed at the trash I see everywhere.  We have some terrible litterbugs around here (I'm especially annoyed at the "Busch Bandit," who seems to have a regular weekend circuit where he tosses his beer cans around the neighborhood).  We also have a municipal government that lacks the funds to keep the streets cleaned up.

Years ago I finally came to the realization that my complaining about the trash and vexing myself over it was never going to help anything.  So I started picking up the trash myself.  At least one morning a week I make a point of carrying bags to clean up some of the streets that I regularly walk.  I've hauled hundreds of bags of trash out of the park over the years.  It's a never-ending job, but it definitely helps the park's and neighborhood's appearance, and not just for me.  Eventually the city even started to get serious about keeping the park cleaned up, so I no longer have as much work to do there.  Improvements do sometimes happen!

It's the same way with race relations.  I can't fix the nation's race problems.  I can't give black people a better deal in places where they still aren't getting a fair shake, and I can't fix the growing double standards that make every police offense against POC an international cause celebre while pretending that the routine black-on-white murders and rapes (I've known people victimized by both) don't even exist. 

Here's what I can do--and what you can do too.  I can treat people of other races and backgrounds the way I myself would want to be treated--you know, the Golden Rule thing that Jesus taught.  I can, in my role as a public servant, work to serve all segments of our community.  I can make friends with people of other races and hear how their lives are going (Maybe it's not as much of a challenge for me, since I grew up in a town and a school where white and black residents interacted on a daily basis.  That's a great way to learn that other people are just people, after all). 

And I can learn not to take offense all the time.  The black people who take such great offense over this and that feel that they have every bit as much reason to take offense as you do at the things that offend you.  You get tired of hearing them be offended.  Others get tired of hearing you be offended.  So let's give each other a break.  You and I can't control what they say, but we can control what we say.  I've spent a long time training myself not to take automatic offense at everything.  It makes life a lot better.

[mahagonny]

Thank you apl68. I'll give it some thought.

I remain convinced that the woke and "antiracist" brigade need to be opposed, not merely ignored, because they are not merely a waste of time; rather, they are untrustworthy, fanatical and noxious. And notably enabled and/or promoted by higher ed culture.
Perhaps I can use some of your message along the way. I do need a way to feel better.

[marshwiggle]

I can't fix the nation's race problems.  I can't give black people a better deal in places where they still aren't getting a fair shake, and I can't fix the growing double standards that make every police offense against POC an international cause celebre while pretending that the routine black-on-white murders and rapes (I've known people victimized by both) don't even exist. 

Here's what I can do--and what you can do too.  I can treat people of other races and backgrounds the way I myself would want to be treated--you know, the Golden Rule thing that Jesus taught.  I can, in my role as a public servant, work to serve all segments of our community.  I can make friends with people of other races and hear how their lives are going (Maybe it's not as much of a challenge for me, since I grew up in a town and a school where white and black residents interacted on a daily basis.  That's a great way to learn that other people are just people, after all). 

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.



*So literally Jesus wasn't good enough for them. I have heard woke people disparage MLK's "I have a dream" speech because being anti-racist requires judging people according to their skin colour.

[mahagonny]

I can't fix the nation's race problems.  I can't give black people a better deal in places where they still aren't getting a fair shake, and I can't fix the growing double standards that make every police offense against POC an international cause celebre while pretending that the routine black-on-white murders and rapes (I've known people victimized by both) don't even exist. 

Here's what I can do--and what you can do too.  I can treat people of other races and backgrounds the way I myself would want to be treated--you know, the Golden Rule thing that Jesus taught.  I can, in my role as a public servant, work to serve all segments of our community.  I can make friends with people of other races and hear how their lives are going (Maybe it's not as much of a challenge for me, since I grew up in a town and a school where white and black residents interacted on a daily basis.  That's a great way to learn that other people are just people, after all). 

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

Well, as Fred Rogers would say, when calamity strikes, look around for the helpers. The people with competence and compassion. They always show up. In our times, I predict (hope?) it will be the young black conservative scholars who know how to speak calmly and with logical organization. (They certainly do it better than I can.) Of course you already know about Coleman Hughes (a pretty good jazz trombonist too, incidentally, and all around good guy.) Others will come along.

[Langue_doc]

mahagonny, please listen to apl68 and let this go. I agree with you that the mainstream media has been very selective in reporting incidents of police brutality as well as other race-related incidents. Anger is justified, but will not convert anyone to your way of thinking. The NYTimes has been egregiously and willfully suppressing incidents in NYC. When they report attacks on Asians they make it a point to describe the perpetrator as someone with mental problems or homeless and also forget to mention previous incidents where at least a couple of Asians were killed by being pushed onto the subway tracks just as the train was entering the station. Just let it go.

[Parasaurolophus]

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.

[marshwiggle]

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.

In law, an important principle is that of intent. To be found guilty of a crime, a person must have been able to form the intent. One person's actions may cause the death of another, but if there was no intent, then it won't be called "murder", and may even be deemed an accident rather than a crime depending on the circumstances. (In fact, in many accident situations, it would be considered a miscarriage of justice for the person to be punished, even if their actions resulted in someone else's death.)

Racism used to be used in the same way to describe specific animus based on race. To apply it any time someone feels they have been the victim of an injustice, even if no-one intended them harm, is to make the term virtually meaningless. Similarly, understanding it in that way means that being called "racist" isn't necessarily something to be concerned about, since it may have nothing to do with one's moral behaviour.

[mahagonny]

I agree. In fact, I would say most people probably agree. That's what my mother taught me half a century ago, and that's what generations of people have been taught. The frustrating reality now if that the loudest voices of wokeness will claim that the Golden Rule isn't enough*. Being "non-racist" isn't sufficient; you must be "anti-racist". Those loudest voices of wokeness could be ignored as extremists were it not for the media and many academics who encourage them. Still, I believe that most people will indeed continue to try and apply the Golden Rule even as the extremists call them nasty names. My hope is that enough of the younger generation growing up in this see identity politics for the toxic, illogical, and counter-productive mess that it is and reject it. I've seen several smart, articulate young people from all kinds of "identities" who express this, which is encouraging.

From my perspective, I think the real problem is that far too many people--including, but not limited to, people on the right--seem to think that racism requires some kind of nasty, racist intention. And that belief isn't just obviously false, it's awfully self-serving.

So, for example, if black people in the US are committing violent crime against white people at a higher rate (given their percentage of the population) than white people commit violent crime against black people, even though there may be no clear evidence of racial animus involved in the assaults, muggings, break-ins, home invasions, rapes and homicides, then white people are suffering the effects of racism, by your definition, and you and your anti-racism allies are very concerned about this? Because if they are, I'm still waiting to hear about it.
[on edit] Or for example if it turns out that democratic party's campaign platform of building up the black victimhood narrative is actually harmful to the morale and self esteem of black America, that would also be racism, even without malicious intent? And it wouldn't be difficult at all to understand it as selfish.
These things are not even considered by the anti-racism movement. It's all just manifesto and blind fervor.

The 'anti-racist' movement doesn't look remotely like a serious effort to study and reduce the effects of racism, even when considered in the broader definition. While it intends to tap into our respect for principles of right and wrong as they apply to race. And as regards its conquest of academia through the diversity staff and expanding their role, and the resulting intimidation of anyone who doesn't 100% buy it, it's nothing but a power play. That's why I don't take it seriously. No, worse than that, that's why I consider it a menace.