The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[mahagonny]

There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.

Good luck getting any traction with that accurate observation. The tenure track, which is of course the source of the 'anti-racism' religious dogma, also loves their unions. So here we are.
Corruption.

An interesting prespective fromGlenn Loury & John McWhorter

Good luck getting any traction with this truth. Academia surely knows that the public health menace is not police, but black-on-black crime. Why don't they write and talk about this (Outside of Loury, McWhorter, Steele and a few others)? Nothing in it for them.

[Kron3007]

There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.

Good luck getting any traction with that accurate observation. The tenure track, which is of course the source of the 'anti-racism' religious dogma, also loves their unions. So here we are.
Corruption.

An interesting prespective fromGlenn Loury & John McWhorter

Good luck getting any traction with this truth. Academia surely knows that the public health menace is not police, but black-on-black crime. Why don't they write and talk about this (Outside of Loury, McWhorter, Steele and a few others)? Nothing in it for them.

Aren't you always going on about how great unions are and how much you need one? 

I agree that the police unions are part of the problem, but it is only one piece of the puzzle.  Other countries also have police unions, but dont murder nearly as many citizens.

[mahagonny]

Aren't you always going on about how great unions are and how much you need one? 

I agree that the police unions are part of the problem, but it is only one piece of the puzzle.  Other countries also have police unions, but dont murder nearly as many citizens.

Sure I am. I support adjunct unions with words, dues, and labor. What choice do I have? The tenure track has had one for thirty years longer than we have, and it has the reinforcement of the provisions of tenure and promotion to consolidate power with. In that setting the only thing that makes sense is to have an adjunct union, little though it may be able to do. All adjunct unions in the USA combined together are still a very small reason that democratic, pro-union politicians are able to raise enough money to get themselves elected. The big money makers, police, tenure track faculty, government administrators and others contribute much more to the campaigns and as a result the politicians cater to them and their material interests. No democratic politician that I can remember has ever even uttered the term 'adjunct college faculty' anywhere near a functioning microphone.
Tenure track unions are of course partly there to protect tenured faculty from each other.
None of this means the existence of unions in the USA provides more equity to society in general. It just means unions are the lay of the land and you'd better have one or you're double-screwed.

The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.

[Parasaurolophus]

The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.

I know several who have and do, and are very vocal activists on that (and the prison abolition) front.

[lightning]

The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.

I know several who have and do, and are very vocal activists on that (and the prison abolition) front.

Mahagonny, once again you are wrong.

For starters, check out Paul Butler, a law professor at Georgetown University, has a nice little bit about police unions (about how they get in the way of reforms). It's on NPR.

Then check out the peer-reviewed article by Stephen Rushin (Assistant Professor at University of Alabama) article in the Duke Law Journal, v.66 n. 6 (March 2017) where he discusses collective bargaining agreements limiting police accountability.

[mahagonny]

The police are in the catching criminals business. It's never clear to me at all that most of them want a just society. Their primary concern seems to be success and looking like productive employees. If they apprehend 12 criminals a day and an unfair number of them are black, they still have twelve perps on which they can hang a criminal complaint and fill out an incident report that looks legitimate. So it was a good day at work for them.

And that's the problem with the police, mahagonny, and why I wholeheartedly support firing them all and starting over from scratch.

If we wanted to we could apply that standard to all jobs held by Americans. Who's going to work every day thinking fervently about how to make the world a fairer place, and who's thinking about either (1) how to do it well enough to keep it by the measures that your immediate supervisor uses, or (2) how to do it well enough by the measures applied to get a promotion and a raise over the just-good-enough guy next to you. Sounds like fun, right?

The permanent, salaried and benefitted higher education professoriate will never, ever raise questions about the legitimacy or ethics of police unions.

I know several who have and do, and are very vocal activists on that (and the prison abolition) front.

Mahagonny, once again you are wrong.

For starters, check out Paul Butler, a law professor at Georgetown University, has a nice little bit about police unions (about how they get in the way of reforms). It's on NPR.

Then check out the peer-reviewed article by Stephen Rushin (Assistant Professor at University of Alabama) article in the Duke Law Journal, v.66 n. 6 (March 2017) where he discusses collective bargaining agreements limiting police accountability.

I took a look. Pretty interesting. But they're not making much of a splash with this publishing, are they?
How do you say 'sure, unions can be corrupt, but not ours. Theirs.' Easier to say 'union yes' and one hand washes the other. Or throw and adjunct to the lions. Nobody knows the difference anyway.

https://dcist.com/story/21/03/11/georgetown-law-professor-fired-after-racist-black-student-performance/

There's some merit to the discussion happening about the fact that even complaints that are sustained don't result in much discipline or have much impact.  The reason for that is the unions.

I knew a cop who wasn't "bad" in any way in the manner that we are talking about in this conversation.  Most of his co-workers thought he was a bad cop, but he certainly didn't use unjustifiable force on anyone or hassle people without a legal reason.  Doing any of those things would have required him to have been doing something similar to his job.  Usually he was trying to get out of work, sleeping somewhere, or leaving the city without a reason to go visit a friend (or lover or God knows who) in another place.  In fact the thought of this guy using excessive force actually makes me laugh a little out loud.  Excessive force?  Anyone would have settled for him going to a call or making a traffic stop every now and then and not finding reasons to be doing nothing.

My point is this:  They couldn't get rid of this guy.  The union saved his ass every time.  I'd bet you that the Minneapolis union saved Chauvin's a few times too.

If you want people held to the type of standard they are in almost any other job, the unions need to go.  FWIW I see the same problem among teachers.  Obviously in that case excessive force isn't the issue, but rather a myriad of other problems that can't be properly addressed due to unions.

[lightning]

Oh, just cut it out, Mahagonny. You're playing your hackneyed hand of attempting to establish equivalency/hypocrisy/complicity to distract and mitigate.

One can be union and/or TT in higher ed and still take a stand against unions in other professions that are mis-using their power (in the case under discussion, the police union). And that's what the two links that I posted are about.

[mahagonny]

Not only one can, but two can.

[lightning]

Not only one can, but two can.

You started a haiku, with a finished first line. Add four syllables to the second line and a 3rd line with five syllables, then you can post to the Friday haiku thread and actually have something meaningful to contribute to the fora.

If you don't finish your haiku by Friday, I will finish it for you and post it on Friday, with both of us as authors. My completion of your haiku would go something like,

Not only one can,
But two can -- stand up with me,
Breathe, Black Lives Matter.

by Mahagonny & Lightning

[Hegemony]

Hahaha, love it! Lightning strikes again.

[mahagonny]

Not only one can, but two can.

You started a haiku, with a finished first line. Add four syllables to the second line and a 3rd line with five syllables, then you can post to the Friday haiku thread and actually have something meaningful to contribute to the fora.

If you don't finish your haiku by Friday, I will finish it for you and post it on Friday, with both of us as authors. My completion of your haiku would go something like,

Not only one can,
But two can -- stand up with me,
Breathe, Black Lives Matter.

by Mahagonny & Lightning

I don't think we are ready to write poetry together at this time. However, there is something we could collaborate on. Stay tuned!

[mahagonny]

Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8

[Sun_Worshiper]

Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8

The lawyer is doing what he's supposed to do, but the bar to overturn a jury's verdict is high. So don't get your hopes up Mahagonny.

[Parasaurolophus]

Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8

The lawyer is doing what he's supposed to do, but the bar to overturn a jury's verdict is high. So don't get your hopes up Mahagonny.

And normally this is a years-long (often decades-long) process. It's easy to go to prison, but once you're in, getting out is very hard. Even if you're innocent, which he isn't.

[mahagonny]

Nelson requests another trial and an impeachment of the verdict.

https://hayspost.com/posts/96973746-0539-444e-9ee2-4db59f5dd9d8

The lawyer is doing what he's supposed to do, but the bar to overturn a jury's verdict is high. So don't get your hopes up Mahagonny.

Oh, no, I don't think they will be successful, nor do I feel sorry about Chauvin going to jail. And I hate to disappoint you. I know you're itching to find someone who thinks Chauvin should escape without legal consequences so you can tell them off. Maybe surf around facebook till you find someone who's wrong and square off?
But that doesn't mean Nelson's complaints are entirely without merit. I would have thought if ever there was a time for a change of venue and a sequestered jury it would be this time. In fact not long ago forumites were speculating where it would be held.
And, BTW, it's just news. You don't need to get excited.