The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[spork]

Alabama police officer convicted of murder for shooting suicidal man who had called 911:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/us/huntsville-police-convicted-murder-suicidal-man.html.

[mahagonny]

Portland police are resigning. https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/18/us/portland-oregon-police-resign-team/index.html

Jacobs' attorney, a real charmer.

'Jacobs' attorney, Juan Chavez, said the resignations represented "contempt" officers felt for the public.
"The mass resignation from the Rapid Response Team demonstrates the contempt its members feel for even the possibility that one of their colleagues is held accountable for his actions," he said in a statement. "The refusal to acknowledge and address this wrongdoing goes to the heart of what's wrong with Portland Police."'

[mahagonny]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/3-ex-cops-convicted-of-civil-rights-violations-in-george-floyd-killing-.html

"During the monthlong trial, prosecutors sought to show that the officers violated their training, including when they failed to move Floyd or give him CPR. Prosecutors argued that Floyd's condition was so serious that even bystanders without basic medical training could see he needed help."

But we also know that Floyd was complaining of not being able to breathe even before Derek Chauvin arrived. and we also know that the two suspected him of being high. and fentanyl intoxication can cause respiratory arrest. So should the two rookie officers have administered CPR at that point? Would it have been possible, given the way Floyd was acting?

Many questions.

[smallcleanrat]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/24/3-ex-cops-convicted-of-civil-rights-violations-in-george-floyd-killing-.html

"During the monthlong trial, prosecutors sought to show that the officers violated their training, including when they failed to move Floyd or give him CPR. Prosecutors argued that Floyd's condition was so serious that even bystanders without basic medical training could see he needed help."

But we also know that Floyd was complaining of not being able to breathe even before Derek Chauvin arrived. and we also know that the two suspected him of being high. and fentanyl intoxication can cause respiratory arrest. So should the two rookie officers have administered CPR at that point? Would it have been possible, given the way Floyd was acting?

Many questions.

Can't tell if that's a joke or if you just don't know what CPR is and didn't bother to Google it...

https://www.newsweek.com/trainer-says-cops-floyd-case-taught-begin-cpr-not-wait-paramedic-1677351?amp=1

The three former Minneapolis police officers charged with violating George Floyd's civil rights were taught to administer CPR on someone immediately if they were unable to find a pulse, not wait for paramedics.
[...]
"If you can't detect a pulse after about 10 seconds, then you should begin CPR," Mackenzie testified.

At the point the testifying officer claims CPR should have been administered, the way Floyd was "acting" was unconscious and unresponsive with no detectable pulse.

[mahagonny]

Of course it's not a joke. I am wondering, just for the sake of knowing, whether the the two policemen who were initially on the scene should have been expected, according to their training, to administer CPR to Floyd when he first began complaining that he couldn't breathe. This would have been before Chauvin and the other veteran cop even arrived. And what might have happened, had that been done, or attempted. Before Chauvin and the other veteran arrived Floyd asked to be allowed to lie down on the pavement. This suggests to me he felt very strange. You don't lie down on the pavement to relax. Also they had noted he was salivating unusually, and he admitted to taking drugs anally.

[mahagonny]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

[Parasaurolophus]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

In basic first aid, you learn to first assess the surroundings and check for circulation (i.e. open wounds, bleeding, etc.). If the person is responsive, you ask about what they're feeling, exactly, as you check the airway, loosen tight clothing, and ask about prescribed medications they might need help taking. If they're still struggling to breathe, you call 911 for paramedic assistance. If they're unresponsive, you delegate calling 911 to someone else, tell someone else to get an AED (which cops here all carry in their cars) while you put them in recovery position, check their ABCs, and begin administering CPR. Once the AED arrives, you attach it and follow instructions until the paramedics arrive.

Now, it's true that Black people look different from white people, so it's possible that tracks an anatomical difference such that you actually have to close their airway so that they can breathe through their skin. If so, then I guess you do that.

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

[marshwiggle]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

[mahagonny]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

To me, asking to lie down on the pavement indicates a panic. Why would anyone prefer lying down on the pavement to something else?
The police did not believe that he had trouble breathing. They may have suspected, but surely didn't know that he had enough speedball ingested to kill him. Perhaps they didn't know that fentanyl can cause respiratory failure or that methamphetamine can cause heart failure? They wouldn't have known his general health condition, which sounds something like fair at best.

Now, it's true that Black people look different from white people, so it's possible that tracks an anatomical difference such that you actually have to close their airway so that they can breathe through their skin. If so, then I guess you do that.

One of the two policemen initially present was black (or is so identified by the press) so I don't see how black people looking different from white people has any relevance, much as I hate to disrupt another powerful racism narrative.

[Parasaurolophus]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

Until a 200lb man choked him to death. At which point, it appears his airway was not so clear.

[marshwiggle]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

Until a 200lb man choked him to death. At which point, it appears his airway was not so clear.

The discussion was about when the complaints of not being able to breathe started.
There was no 200lb man involved at that point.

[mahagonny]

Derek Chauvin stands at 5'9", was estimated to weigh 140 lbs.

My thought process is like the 'what if:'

1. The two policemen had apprehended Floyd as they did.
2. As soon as he mentioned difficulty breathing, they put two and two together and call the ambulance.
3. They tell Floyd to calm down, ambulance is coming. Chauvin is never called.
4. Medics give him oxygen, saving his life.
5. He's still arrested.

In basic first aid, you learn to first assess the surroundings and check for circulation (i.e. open wounds, bleeding, etc.). If the person is responsive, you ask about what they're feeling, exactly, as you check the airway, loosen tight clothing, and ask about prescribed medications they might need help taking. If they're still struggling to breathe, you call 911 for paramedic assistance. If they're unresponsive, you delegate calling 911 to someone else, tell someone else to get an AED (which cops here all carry in their cars) while you put them in recovery position, check their ABCs, and begin administering CPR. Once the AED arrives, you attach it and follow instructions until the paramedics arrive.

Not familiar with AED. I doubt that Floyd would have been carrying a bronchodilator, whereas he was buying cigarettes, which asthmatics don't usually do.

[Parasaurolophus]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

Until a 200lb man choked him to death. At which point, it appears his airway was not so clear.

The discussion was about when the complaints of not being able to breathe started.
There was no 200lb man involved at that point.

The question was what should be done when someone tells a police officer they can't breathe. I told you what basic first aid says you should do. The events that followed are pretty germane to the case, however.

[mahagonny]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

Until a 200lb man choked him to death. At which point, it appears his airway was not so clear.

The discussion was about when the complaints of not being able to breathe started.
There was no 200lb man involved at that point.

The question was what should be done when someone tells a police officer they can't breathe. I told you what basic first aid says you should do. The events that followed are pretty germane to the case, however.

So what's demonstrated is that the situation should have been handled differently. But the narrative fed to the public and largely accepted was racism, for which I would ask for evidence.
ETA: In fact, you can get in a lot of hot water just suggesting that there might not have been racism present. Which is a pretty sad state of affairs. And especially so when the outrage  is coming from people who've been trained in critical thinking.

[marshwiggle]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

Until a 200lb man choked him to death. At which point, it appears his airway was not so clear.

The discussion was about when the complaints of not being able to breathe started.
There was no 200lb man involved at that point.

The question was what should be done when someone tells a police officer they can't breathe. I told you what basic first aid says you should do.

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.