The murder of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN last Monday, May 25

[mahagonny]

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.

I have been in both situations. Choking and acute asthmatic attack. It is possible though not easy to get the words out. After all, your life depends on it. However, you wouldn't be talking a blue streak. I consider it likely that Floyd was experiencing the terror of speedball overdose. Sitting in a car with drugs on you, police coming. What would you do? Hide them, throw them out the window, or swallow them. Or all three.

[Parasaurolophus]

OK, I see what you mean, SCR. What I still don't understand is what should the police have done differently when the complaints of not being able to breathe started?

On the other hand, if that's not the case, then the first step is going to be to clear the fucking airway while someone else calls 911.

Since he asked to lie down on the pavement, it would appear his airway was clear.

Until a 200lb man choked him to death. At which point, it appears his airway was not so clear.

The discussion was about when the complaints of not being able to breathe started.
There was no 200lb man involved at that point.

The question was what should be done when someone tells a police officer they can't breathe. I told you what basic first aid says you should do.

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.

Sure. I haven't denied that, have I? That one can talk does not mean they aren't in distress or don't require first aid, however.

So, again: the question was what they should have done. The answer begins with basic first aid, and extends at least as far as don't murder him. And he was murdered in a way that it's pretty easy for anyone to recognize as being very dangerous.

If you know enough about first aid to know that talking suggests a clear airway, then you.know that kneeling on someone's airway for nine minutes is bad for breathing and likely fatal.

[mahagonny]

Sure. I haven't denied that, have I? That one can talk does not mean they aren't in distress or don't require first aid, however.

Sure, but if a person is talking so much that you can't believe his claim that he is having trouble breathing, then he is not communicating to you with words that he needs first aid. Furthermore, if he just got out a small car and he's now telling you he's claustrophobic in a larger car, maybe he's just plain full of crap and resisting arrest. Especially if he carries phony money in his wallet. This doesn't change whether the police were malfeasant or not. They were. But it should show that they likely reacted with anger at his behavior. Which could easily happen to any perp, not just one with dark skin...;-)
I envision Floyd could have been realizing he was overdosing, yet still in control of his faculties enough to be stalling for time, disposing of drugs, hoping to create enough of a scene to throw the officers off their game.
I don't defend these four, but I'll say this: glad I don't have their job.

[jimbogumbo]

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.

I have been in both situations. Choking and acute asthmatic attack. It is possible though not easy to get the words out. After all, your life depends on it. However, you wouldn't be talking a blue streak. I consider it likely that Floyd was experiencing the terror of speedball overdose. Sitting in a car with drugs on you, police coming. What would you do? Hide them, throw them out the window, or swallow them. Or all three.

I am not qualified a a medical expert. However, re the fentanyl, the below would suggest he had not taken much. Not saying he didn't, but it seems unlikely. I've also looked at the autopsy since this thread was resurrected, and think it's unlikely heroin was involved in his death.


"From testimony at trial: Dr. Daniel Isenschmid, a toxicologist at NMS Labs in Pennsylvania, presented data at trial from more than 2,300 blood samples in  fentanyl DUI cases from the last year. He showed that while the average fentanyl blood level was close to 9.6 ng/ml, a quarter of people tested had 11 ng/ml or higher. (Important to note: Blood samples were taken from drivers who tested positive for fentanyl and were alive at the time of collection.) 


Isenschmid also showed that Floyd's blood ratio of fentanyl to norfentanyl, the molecule fentanyl is broken down to once in the body, was lower than the average ratio both for people who died of overdoses and those arrested for DUI who lived."

[Kron3007]

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.

I have been in both situations. Choking and acute asthmatic attack. It is possible though not easy to get the words out. After all, your life depends on it. However, you wouldn't be talking a blue streak. I consider it likely that Floyd was experiencing the terror of speedball overdose. Sitting in a car with drugs on you, police coming. What would you do? Hide them, throw them out the window, or swallow them. Or all three.

Swallowing drugs would take a while to cause an issue like this.  He was dead before that would have happened in your dreamed up scenario. 

[mahagonny]

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.

I have been in both situations. Choking and acute asthmatic attack. It is possible though not easy to get the words out. After all, your life depends on it. However, you wouldn't be talking a blue streak. I consider it likely that Floyd was experiencing the terror of speedball overdose. Sitting in a car with drugs on you, police coming. What would you do? Hide them, throw them out the window, or swallow them. Or all three.

Swallowing drugs would take a while to cause an issue like this.  He was dead before that would have happened in your dreamed up scenario. 

I'm not claiming I know how died. I just don't believe you do either.

[Parasaurolophus]

We know how he died.

[mahagonny]

We know how he died.

Yeah, he went outdoors with dark skin. Sure. I trust you completely.

[jimbogumbo]

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.

I have been in both situations. Choking and acute asthmatic attack. It is possible though not easy to get the words out. After all, your life depends on it. However, you wouldn't be talking a blue streak. I consider it likely that Floyd was experiencing the terror of speedball overdose. Sitting in a car with drugs on you, police coming. What would you do? Hide them, throw them out the window, or swallow them. Or all three.

Swallowing drugs would take a while to cause an issue like this.  He was dead before that would have happened in your dreamed up scenario. 

I'm not claiming I know how died. I just don't believe you do either.

Here is the autopsy. Given that an ng is a nanogram, or 1/1,000,000 of a milligram, you should trust Kron3007's analysis more than your gut.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210329003240/www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

[Parasaurolophus]

We know how he died.

Yeah, he went outdoors with dark skin. Sure. I trust you completely.

No. He was choked to death.

[mahagonny]

And as far as breathing goes, if a person is talking, basic first aid suggests the person does not have an airway problem. Choking, i.e. problems with the airway, will make talking difficult if not impossible.

I have been in both situations. Choking and acute asthmatic attack. It is possible though not easy to get the words out. After all, your life depends on it. However, you wouldn't be talking a blue streak. I consider it likely that Floyd was experiencing the terror of speedball overdose. Sitting in a car with drugs on you, police coming. What would you do? Hide them, throw them out the window, or swallow them. Or all three.

Swallowing drugs would take a while to cause an issue like this.  He was dead before that would have happened in your dreamed up scenario. 

I'm not claiming I know how died. I just don't believe you do either.

Here is the autopsy. Given that an ng is a nanogram, or 1/1,000,000 of a milligram, you should trust Kron3007's analysis more than your gut.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210329003240/www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/floyd-autopsy-6-3-20.pdf

Speaking for me, and you can certainly think I'm nuts if you like...1/1,000,000 of a milligram could be a powerful dose of something. Depends on the chemical, doesn't it? 200 micrograms of LSD is more potent than 200 milligrams of mescaline. Quantity doesn't tell me anything. Fentanyl is something like 50 times the strength of morphine. There were 1008 overdose deaths in Minneapolis that year.
(ETA: Sure, when was the last time you did some fentanyl and speed together? Why, it's just like a few Scotch 'n' sodas isn't it? No biggie!)

All the autopsy tells me that I can understand is Mr. Floyd's heart stopped while he was being treated roughly by police. No bruises from the knee on the neck. No one but Derek Chauvin knows how much force was exerted and he didn't testify. People (parasaur, et al) think he was a 200 lb. hunk. Turns out he was 5'9" and 140 lbs. I find that richly ironic, whereas the cliché has been that us crackers perceive black men as bigger, more threatening than they actually are.
Consider what hangs in the balance. If the medical examiner says the police killed him, there's a trial by jury. If he says drugs killed Mr. Floyd then he's acquitting the police all by himself. Who wants that burden in their 9-5 job?

Some think that saying drugs might have been the culprit means you have no anger toward the police or that you're trolling. It's not true. Many have several feelings about that night and the aftermath.
Joe Biden and Maxine Waters stoking the flames. Riots in the cites. Al Sharpton. Media bonanza.
Too many questions, too much carnival atmosphere.
It wouldn't matter; we all agree it was a horrible incident. Except I reserve the right to my own analysis, and I let others have theirs.

[downer]

You can place your advance orders now.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/703358/his-name-is-george-floyd-by-robert-samuels-and-toluse-olorunnipa/

[mahagonny]

Got one already.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-x2xgay-eLfU/T_VDYXQeIlI/AAAAAAAAET8/0btRqWr2Jf4/s1600/001.JPG

[marshwiggle]

From the state of the union address:

We should all agree: The answer is not to Defund the police. The answer is to FUND the police with the resources and training they need to protect our communities.

And if I recall, he got applauded for saying that. (Harris and Pelosi were behind him clapping, I believe.)

Does that mean in less than 2 years the Democrats have become racists who don't care about black lives?

[mahagonny]

From the state of the union address:

We should all agree: The answer is not to Defund the police. The answer is to FUND the police with the resources and training they need to protect our communities.

And if I recall, he got applauded for saying that. (Harris and Pelosi were behind him clapping, I believe.)

Does that mean in less than 2 years the Democrats have become racists who don't care about black lives?

Sure, that's what is meant by 'progressive.'

crickets

Marshy, try your question on a forum that has readers who vote democratic. They'll have insights on Biden's messaging.