How to Deal with Zealots Who Tell You that Your Way of Thinking is Wrong.

[archaeo42]

Thanks everyone.

There are times, when I put the phone down and walk away. I have to- it's too emotionally intense to just listen, or try to have some semblance of a conversation. Today, I basically said, 'I don't want to talk about it. I have enough stress in my life.' only to be told that this person was trying to 'educate' me.

Hmmmm.....

Other times, I put the person on speaker and my SO listens. He is gobsmacked most of the time.

The main reason I posted this thread is just to put it out there. So, if anyone else has a zealot (religious, political, etc.) who is driving you mad, feel free to post and lighten your load. Maybe we can help each other.

In a lot of Carolyn Hax's advice columns she talks about setting boundaries and how to do it/maintain them. One is when a topic or behavior comes up that you do not want to engage with is to say what you said, "I don't want to talk about X." And then change the subject. If the person continues, her advice/script is to reiterate your desire to not about the subject and then say you have to go and hang up or leave the room. You make it clear you are not engaging with the problematic behavior by your own behavior.

[mahagonny]

Just out of curiosity; how many people, in their extended circles, have zealots from both ends of the political spectrum? I do, and I would imagine a lot of people do.

Not in the family, but in my work and social environment and definitely on Facebook. America is breeding them and has been for some time. Donald Trump is both a symptom and a catalyst. I won't explain any further right now out of respect for the purpose of this thread, but you'll probably hear more from me about this as we go along. Very important question.

[marshwiggle]

Just out of curiosity; how many people, in their extended circles, have zealots from both ends of the political spectrum? I do, and I would imagine a lot of people do.

Not in the family, but in my work and social environment and definitely on Facebook. America is breeding them and has been for some time. Donald Trump is both a symptom and a catalyst. I won't explain any further right now out of respect for the purpose of this thread, but you'll probably hear more from me about this as we go along. Very important question.

I think that's an excellent way of putting it. While Trump may have provided accelerant, with apologies to Billy Joel, "he didn't start the fire". Society has been breeding this kind of heavily polarized (and polarizing) environment for a long time.

[Hibush]

The assumption that Marxist ideology is taught is neither wrong nor even an exaggeration, which is surprising because economics as a field has one of the lowest percentages of left identifying faculty.

A lot of people outside of academe seem to think that one cannot teach an ideology without indoctrinating in the ideology. I bet many conventionally conservative economists do a fine job teaching Marxist ideology without indoctrinating anyone in the slightest.

Given that there is a lot of communication among those unfamiliar with the college experience implying incorrectly that these are indoctrination camps, it's important to make the distinction. Asking students to do some critical thinking about the ideologies they study is the opposite of indoctrinating them in those ideologies.

[the_geneticist]

I'd say if you just don't have the time, energy or brain space to engage in a real conversation, then feel free to walk away/hang up/change the subject.
"I don't want to talk about that.  How's your weather/how about that sports team/etc".

They don't have the right to use up your time.

[mamselle]

I don't think this has been said yet, specificaly:

The mantra that you can't control others, and you can't control situations--you can only control yourself and how you respond to those others and those situations--applies as well.

It's not up to you to dissuade them from their fantasies/delusions/errors overall.

You may want to respond mildly with a rejoinder rebutting some statement you know to be in error, but you aren't going to change their minds for them.

M.

[Anselm]

Provided they really are wrong and it's not just me, I explain why I think they're wrong. I also try to let it go after a few rounds, and try again the next time it comes up. I think that the key is knowing when to stop.

I have tried those tactics. This person doesn't want to listen and it's not really a good idea to cut this person out of my life. Today's latest Kool-aid-related conversation: 'Students are learning Marxism in colleges now.' I suppose I just need a place to vent (besides the venting thread) and who knows?- maybe there's a piece of advice that may help me save my sanity.

"Yes, Marx's Das Kapital has been taught at universities around the world since its publication in the late 1800s. Marx was probably the first person to propose technological innovation as a main cause of economic change, a topic for which Robert Solow won the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 1987. By the way, did you know that your tax dollars subsidize professional sports teams owned by billionaires, by contributing to intercollegiate football and basketball, which are farm leagues for the NFL and NBA?"

I've heard that Das Kapital is a famous unread book, one that sits on the shelf and is quoted but no one really reads.  Another example is Darwin's The Descent of Man.

[apl68]

I don't think this has been said yet, specificaly:

The mantra that you can't control others, and you can't control situations--you can only control yourself and how you respond to those others and those situations--applies as well.

It's not up to you to dissuade them from their fantasies/delusions/errors overall.

You may want to respond mildly with a rejoinder rebutting some statement you know to be in error, but you aren't going to change their minds for them.

M.

That's really the most constructive way of addressing it.  It's not easy sometimes.  We're sure we're right, and we want our rightness acknowledged.  We're so convinced that the world would be a better place if others would just think like us that we want to MAKE them think like us.  We assume that our motives for believing what we believe are pure, and that others believe what they do because they're stupid or immoral or self-serving. 

It's usually not as simple as all that. 

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I really appreciate all of the responses to this thread (lots of interesting comments).

Maybe I should clarify, this person is racist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, etc. Very 'deep state' and 'the left are ruining the country by trying to make everyone socialists.' I was also told that I can also only trust family. Very cult-like. Insular.

Toxic.

I know that there is nothing that I can do to encourage this person to question hu's perspective on the world. Never gonna' happen. And that sucks.

As I mentioned upthread, the reason I posted was to unload and also see how common people with this very paranoid worldview are.

[financeguy]

It may be accurate, but referring to someone as racist (or any of the other terms utilized) has got to be one of the least persuasive tools in the box. You are guaranteed to exacerbate whatever attitudes this person has while being seen to use these issues as manipulative tools without sincere concern. ("Playing the race card", etc.) Even implying those terms is toxic. They really should not be used in the context of people you wish to continue to interact with, which brings up the logical point of why you'd even want to if you actually believe that's what they are.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

It may be accurate, but referring to someone as racist (or any of the other terms utilized) has got to be one of the least persuasive tools in the box. You are guaranteed to exacerbate whatever attitudes this person has while being seen to use these issues as manipulative tools without sincere concern. ("Playing the race card", etc.) Even implying those terms is toxic. They really should not be used in the context of people you wish to continue to interact with, which brings up the logical point of why you'd even want to if you actually believe that's what they are.

This person is a family member, so it's difficult for me. I have tried cutting off in the past.

[fishbrains]

+1 to all the disengagement ideas.

A smart preacher-man once told me that if you keep arguing with an idiot, pretty soon the other person is too.

[spork]

[. . .]

This person is a family member, so it's difficult for me. I have tried cutting off in the past.

In the interest of sharing ideas (your situation is not unique, unfortunately), what strategies have not worked previously and why?

[RatGuy]

Whenever one of my family members laments the liberal brain-washing that goes on in colleges, I say, "Brain-washing? I can't even get them to bring the book to class!" Then change the subject.

[mahagonny]

The assumption that Marxist ideology is taught is neither wrong nor even an exaggeration, which is surprising because economics as a field has one of the lowest percentages of left identifying faculty.

A lot of people outside of academe seem to think that one cannot teach an ideology without indoctrinating in the ideology. I bet many conventionally conservative economists do a fine job teaching Marxist ideology without indoctrinating anyone in the slightest.

Given that there is a lot of communication among those unfamiliar with the college experience implying incorrectly that these are indoctrination camps, it's important to make the distinction. Asking students to do some critical thinking about the ideologies they study is the opposite of indoctrinating them in those ideologies.

I appreciate this point very much, but will add our diversity and inclusion department and our union are trying to indoctrinate the faculty in the wake of the tragic George Floyd incident, with a brand new updated summer reading list with all the liberal top forty hits on it.