How to Deal with Zealots Who Tell You that Your Way of Thinking is Wrong.

[mahagonny]

Making a deed trade or sale between two partners in collusion is wrong in the same way forming an extensive bargaining arrangement between one faction of the college faculty and the administration while colluding to exclude the other, or another faction is wrong. Win-win-you lose, loser is identifying allies and enemies. With one player you are sharing your wealth while the two of you prey on other(s).
I like the passive language too -- 'we found ourselves...'

Oh, I dunno; adults get different things out of it...

;--}

I once played Monopoly with three other people: two techie guys and one of the guy's girlfriends. 

We were all in our late 20s/early thirties.

The guys had sussed out the percentage likelihood of other players landing on particular properties, and based decisions like how much to invest in putting properties on them on those figures, which they discussed earnestly and determinedly.

The other woman and I found ourselves quietly, at first--and then more intentionally--conflating our decisions for each others' benefit, so that if one got Boardwalk, the other would sell them Park Place, just to try to stand up against the guys' hardline methods.

We almost got them...until they heard us plotting quietly as we went to get the ice cream ready that was to be our treat/dessert at the end of the game.

They said we were colluding illegally; we said we just wanted a strategy that we could use against their hyper-mathed-up game constructions.

We finally decided that we were really just playing two very different games on the same board, and called it a draw, so the ice cream wouldn't melt...

M.

[mamselle]

I told a friend, an anthropologist, later, and she said that a classic response by oppressed individuals to high-functioning shysters--to band together and work out ways to aggregate power <<en masse>>.

She didn't call it collusion, however, she said it was self-protective cooperation.

A rose...

M.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

Unfortunately, the person in question is not a member of my household and lives 100 miles away, so playing a board game is not possible. This person is also not tech savvy so, no skype, zoom, etc. game-playing. Also, this person is a major pain in my ass, critical, condescending, obnoxious and rude, so...

I missed a phone call from this person and I am somewhat dreading the next call.

[clean]

Unfortunately, the person in question is not a member of my household and lives 100 miles away, so playing a board game is not possible. This person is also not tech savvy so, no skype, zoom, etc. game-playing. Also, this person is a major pain in my ass, critical, condescending, obnoxious and rude, so...

I missed a phone call from this person and I am somewhat dreading the next call.

You know what?   Life is short!  Why worry about this?  What did I miss that requires that you put up with their shit?  IF you want to keep some sort of family peace and keep in touch with this person, then do on on YOUR Terms.  You call when you have something to tell them, and keep it short and sweet.  Should the topic go off the rails, then announce that your cellphone battery is low and that your call may drop at any moment.

The bottom line is that there are only so many minutes that God has given us.  Use them wisely!

Good luck


(I had a friend that would call me late at night when he was all worked up/heavily caffeinated/otherwise impaired.  If I engaged he would just talk and talk. I learned to let the call go to voicemail and he would time it out!  A few days later I would call in the sunny part of the day and have a shorter, more pleasant conversation.  He didnt feel abandoned (as he wasnt) and I didnt waste a lot of time when he was less reasonable.  )

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

Unfortunately, the person in question is not a member of my household and lives 100 miles away, so playing a board game is not possible. This person is also not tech savvy so, no skype, zoom, etc. game-playing. Also, this person is a major pain in my ass, critical, condescending, obnoxious and rude, so...

I missed a phone call from this person and I am somewhat dreading the next call.

You know what?   Life is short!  Why worry about this?  What did I miss that requires that you put up with their shit?  IF you want to keep some sort of family peace and keep in touch with this person, then do on on YOUR Terms.  You call when you have something to tell them, and keep it short and sweet.  Should the topic go off the rails, then announce that your cellphone battery is low and that your call may drop at any moment.

The bottom line is that there are only so many minutes that God has given us.  Use them wisely!

Good luck


(I had a friend that would call me late at night when he was all worked up/heavily caffeinated/otherwise impaired.  If I engaged he would just talk and talk. I learned to let the call go to voicemail and he would time it out!  A few days later I would call in the sunny part of the day and have a shorter, more pleasant conversation.  He didnt feel abandoned (as he wasnt) and I didnt waste a lot of time when he was less reasonable.  )

Good advice Clean. The bolded portion above is funny, since I already do this.

[secundem_artem]

It's time to send Gramps gift subscriptions to Mother Jones, The Progressive, and maybe Tikkun.  It's OK to love somebody and still not put up with their sh!t.  If they refuse to have a civil conversation, fighting back (if somewhat passive aggressively) seems only fair. 

Unless this person is set up to leave you a 7 figure inheritance, in which case never mind.

[mahagonny]

I told a friend, an anthropologist, later, and she said that a classic response by oppressed individuals to high-functioning shysters--to band together and work out ways to aggregate power <<en masse>>.

She didn't call it collusion, however, she said it was self-protective cooperation.

A rose...

M.

High functioning shysters, indeed. sounds quite familiar.

[apl68]

I have a neighbor on my block, a dear 90-year-old lady, who's generally pleasant to talk to.  Except that she sometimes has gotten caught up in this conviction that COVID 19 is a hoax.  I try to steer the conversation away from that subject.  After a bit she steers it back.  Her son is a retired doctor, so she presumably has heard someone she trusts try to set her straight on the subject.  It's annoying--but also saddening that somebody who is quite friendly and in some ways very admirable should be so stuck on something so foolish.

I don't know how she came to believe in the hoax business.  Based on what I've heard her say, I suspect that it has a great deal to do with what the partial shutdown has cost her.  Her church, which is the center of her social world, has not been able to hold face-to-face meetings for months.  When it has reopened, social distancing has barred her from the visiting and hugging that she loves to do.  She has also been forbidden from visiting friends in nursing homes.  It's heartbreaking for her to see them forced into an isolation that seems to her a fate worse than death.

I guess I'm saying all this because we need to remind ourselves that "zealots" don't say what they say just to be stupid and make our lives harder.  They have their reasons and their concerns that make them care deeply about their hobby horses.  They speak and act out because they're in a lot of pain.  These are painful times for us all.

[downer]

I guess I'm saying all this because we need to remind ourselves that "zealots" don't say what they say just to be stupid and make our lives harder.  They have their reasons and their concerns that make them care deeply about their hobby horses.  They speak and act out because they're in a lot of pain.  These are painful times for us all.

That might be true of some zealots (and cranks). I don't buy it as a general explanation. Some people are just like that. Others get like that because of pernicious cable tv. FoxNews has a lot to answer for.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I guess I'm saying all this because we need to remind ourselves that "zealots" don't say what they say just to be stupid and make our lives harder.  They have their reasons and their concerns that make them care deeply about their hobby horses.  They speak and act out because they're in a lot of pain. These are painful times for us all.

I'd have more sympathy for this person if I hadn't grown up dealing with this behavior from hu on a daily basis. Hu has also written me out of the will (at least once for 'disobeying') and I really don't care, but this is a good example of the personality that I'm dealing with. I suspect that part of it comes from hu's need to control due to an abusive situation. There comes a point when I have to weigh what's more important- being constantly wounded by these interactions, or feeling sympathy for this person's plight.

[mamselle]

I do sympathize with those for whom basic losses are hard to bear given their losses in other areas.

I live alone and am happy about it.

But I do understand others have different responses--and I've tried to do what I can about it in those cases where it's possible to work something out.

For three different friends over the past two weeks--all of whom live alone, and each of whom I often meet up with in casual social settings--I've ordered a meal delivered, timed so we could share our dinners and conversations over Zoom in the evenings. Two were in my time zone, one was three zones away.

I'll probably repeat that in a week or so as well as the frequent emails and calls we share.

It so happens at the moment that I can do that..in other settings they've helped me out in other times and places--but it's not like keeping track or anything, it's just friends sharing food, or--as our theology teachers used to call it, " meal fellowship," or "Agape meals," something like that.

It was fun figuring out which restaurants, and what foods, and who delivered when...a time-based game, in a way.

And we had a chance to talk together, joke, and see each other, right down to the special sauce dripping down one friend's chin.

M.

[apl68]

I guess I'm saying all this because we need to remind ourselves that "zealots" don't say what they say just to be stupid and make our lives harder.  They have their reasons and their concerns that make them care deeply about their hobby horses.  They speak and act out because they're in a lot of pain.  These are painful times for us all.

That might be true of some zealots (and cranks). I don't buy it as a general explanation. Some people are just like that. Others get like that because of pernicious cable tv. FoxNews has a lot to answer for.

I've had the misfortune to know people who really are just like that.  But in my experience I've found that the other explanations are more often true.  It's part of why I try not to write people off, even when that's a real temptation.  But I have been forced to write people off before.

[nescafe]

That might be true of some zealots (and cranks). I don't buy it as a general explanation. Some people are just like that. Others get like that because of pernicious cable tv. FoxNews has a lot to answer for.

My zealot is my mom, and the above is one of the worst things about engaging with her. She will start up ranty group email threads based on the grievance du jour, I will engage, it won't go anywhere... and then I will see a Tucker Carlson clip featured on the Daily Show and realize she'd literally pulled her crusade from there.

Happened this week, actually. I guess maybe it's a reminder not to engage.

As for OP's question: I keep my distance and don't really talk to problem people. There are some battles I will pick every single time (racism is the one), but it's not because I think I'll change minds. It's because racists should catch hell every time they utter that trash, and I'm here for it.

[mahagonny]

How do you deal with these people (other than just avoiding them)? What do you do if they are family? :(

Stop being a zealot.

[Anselm]

I have realized that many controversial issues are not really about evidence and logic, right and wrong or the best result as shown by statistical evidence.  They really are about personal preference and that is rooted in culture and there can be no consensus or compromise.