Somebody Finally Says It

[mahagonny]

George Floyd was not a 'get the black guy' racial thing. Not really.
Glenn Loury and John McWhorter talking frankly. I thought it was good. I feel like I need to apologize for posting this, but honestly? These guys sound like they have common sense.
Your thoughts? I appreciate reading them even if I don't agree.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So7-_Sq1FP8

[mahagonny]

OK, and this is relevant too. The Woke Breaking Point.     https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/woke-breaking-point/

As I'm doing this I'm seeing my colleagues weighing in 'it's not the liberals who've been looting.' But they're confused about where to go from there. Some were saying, two weeks ago 'it's not liberals who are looting stores. There can be no associating them with our outrage.' But now they're saying 'well of course statues are being toppled and defaced. And notice, now we're finally having a conversation about race. The white establishment doesn't pay attention until something inconvenient happens to them.' But if you ask them 'OK, now that you believe we're thinking what do you want us to do?' And they don't have an answer except more intense outrage.
This is not how a society productively assesses what it is doing.
I don't see how depopulated urban areas in Chicago, Baltimore, Atlanta etc. can be restored without a sharp reduction in the inhabitants of those neighborhoods committing crimes against their own neighbors. But you can't talk about their personal responsibility or choices. You can only talk about how it's time for me, middle class Whitey, to change how I think and speak because a cop snuffed out a black man hundreds of miles away. It's crazy. The acceptable thought processes are getting fewer and fewer.
I guess this all should have been added to the original Floyd thread. Sorry if I added to fora clutter.

[Treehugger]

What if we have several "woke breaking points?" I have long since left the woke/social justice movement, but I am in a UU church which has unfortunately become more and more woke over the years (as I have moved in the other direction). Three Sundays ago, our religious education director did this for her children's sermon: She spoke about the evils of "whiteness." She showed a PowerPoint that linked Whiteness to a whole slew of other nouns including: Perfectionism; Punctuality; Property; Capitalism; etc. and after a 5 minute anti-whiteness screed literally yelled that these are all FACTS!!!

I haven't been back to a service since.


Also, I joked with my husband if "whiteness" means "perfectionism" and "punctuality", does that mean blackness is all about being late and doing slovenly work? Because, you know, that is kinda what it looks like .,,

[marshwiggle]

What if we have several "woke breaking points?" I have long since left the woke/social justice movement, but I am in a UU church which has unfortunately become more and more woke over the years (as I have moved in the other direction). Three Sundays ago, our religious education director did this for her children's sermon: She spoke about the evils of "whiteness." She showed a PowerPoint that linked Whiteness to a whole slew of other nouns including: Perfectionism; Punctuality; Property; Capitalism; etc. and after a 5 minute anti-whiteness screed literally yelled that these are all FACTS!!!

I haven't been back to a service since.


Also, I joked with my husband if "whiteness" means "perfectionism" and "punctuality", does that mean blackness is all about being late and doing slovenly work? Because, you know, that is kinda what it looks like .,,

So much for
"There is none righteous, no not one"

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

"In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free..."

Gee, where did those things come from? Some sort of heretical source obviously. And definitely not woke.
It obviously should be cancelled.

(Just in case it wasn't obvious, "all" isn't just "white people". And "none" is "inclusive".)

Where did the idea that "property" is somehow original to white societies come from? I'd love to hear the explanation of that one.

[Treehugger]

What if we have several "woke breaking points?" I have long since left the woke/social justice movement, but I am in a UU church which has unfortunately become more and more woke over the years (as I have moved in the other direction). Three Sundays ago, our religious education director did this for her children's sermon: She spoke about the evils of "whiteness." She showed a PowerPoint that linked Whiteness to a whole slew of other nouns including: Perfectionism; Punctuality; Property; Capitalism; etc. and after a 5 minute anti-whiteness screed literally yelled that these are all FACTS!!!

I haven't been back to a service since.


Also, I joked with my husband if "whiteness" means "perfectionism" and "punctuality", does that mean blackness is all about being late and doing slovenly work? Because, you know, that is kinda what it looks like .,,

So much for
"There is none righteous, no not one"

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

"In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free..."

Gee, where did those things come from? Some sort of heretical source obviously. And definitely not woke.
It obviously should be cancelled.

(Just in case it wasn't obvious, "all" isn't just "white people". And "none" is "inclusive".)

Where did the idea that "property" is somehow original to white societies come from? I'd love to hear the explanation of that one.

Well, I am not, or rather, no longer a believer, but point taken.

[marshwiggle]

What if we have several "woke breaking points?" I have long since left the woke/social justice movement, but I am in a UU church which has unfortunately become more and more woke over the years (as I have moved in the other direction). Three Sundays ago, our religious education director did this for her children's sermon: She spoke about the evils of "whiteness." She showed a PowerPoint that linked Whiteness to a whole slew of other nouns including: Perfectionism; Punctuality; Property; Capitalism; etc. and after a 5 minute anti-whiteness screed literally yelled that these are all FACTS!!!

I haven't been back to a service since.


Also, I joked with my husband if "whiteness" means "perfectionism" and "punctuality", does that mean blackness is all about being late and doing slovenly work? Because, you know, that is kinda what it looks like .,,

So much for
"There is none righteous, no not one"

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

"In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free..."

Gee, where did those things come from? Some sort of heretical source obviously. And definitely not woke.
It obviously should be cancelled.

(Just in case it wasn't obvious, "all" isn't just "white people". And "none" is "inclusive".)

Where did the idea that "property" is somehow original to white societies come from? I'd love to hear the explanation of that one.

Well, I am not, or rather, no longer a believer, but point taken.

As a Christian, I am frustrated when church leaders jump on the identity politics bandwagon, because identity politics is bad theology (as indicated by the references above). (And of course that is true of identity politics of both the left and right.)

[Hegemony]

Oh, come on. Just because there is neither Gentile nor Jew, etc., in God's eyes, doesn't mean that there's no bigotry down here on earth. And just because some people on the left are over the top or illogical doesn't mean there's no point in opposing racism and bigotry. Let's be reasonable.

[mahagonny]

Sure there's bigotry on earth. Because humans are human. What I'm thinking about more lately is not what causes bigotry (as the left obsesses about) but more how many different ways does it operate, exist, coexist with requirements of acceptable behavior.?
Casual observing:
Our daughter has a Chinese-American best friend from high school days. It's an inner city school, very diverse. When daughter came home from hanging out with the family, she'd say 'they're fun people, we have a blast together, but they are bigoted." "Against who?' "White people." "Wow, and you are comfortable around them?" "Yes, very. It's obvious they like me. Maybe they're too comfortable and that's why they let me see the bigotry. They make fun of white people as a category. For example, we order the stupidest thing on the menu. But they try to  make sure I know they don't mean us.' It interested me, because it seems that while certain American families, like this one that makes a nice living from American whites and others by  owning and operating several Chinese Food Restaurants, they don't feel the need to see themselves as free of bias. Nor are they looking for utopia. They're also not doing what black and white liberal America are doing now, either. They're not to the same extent infiltrating college curricula to overhaul our unconscious thinking habits.They're not trying to get more recognition for national holidays that honor their advocates. Their not getting Hollywood involved, or kneeling at football games. They stick together but they also circulate. They believe in the family unit and their crime rate is low. They're not making heroes out of the dregs among them as some blacks have done.  They're making money, running businesses, playing in orchestras, scoring high on SAT exams. Their attitude, when it's on the more swaggering or insolent side, might be more like 'hey white person, if there's a racial problem between you and me, it's yours. I'm OK.'
The anti-racism trend now appears to be the property of certain blacks. They want it, and they want to require you to jump through its hoops to prove you are not a hopeless misanthrope. And they're being egged on by liberal whites, and I don't think it's going to help them have better lives. The liberal whites are getting confused about what they believe or are eager to be part of a budding in-crowd.

[quasihumanist]

Let's start from the beginning.

1) The primary problem is police brutality, particularly against black people.

2) A secondary problem is collective failure to care about or notice police brutality, particularly when the victims are black.

I don't think we can doubt that the following are both contributing factors to the prevalence of (1) and (2)

3) Some people are racist, and other people don't notice (possibly because they don't care much about) racism.

4) Americans are too accepting of violence, especially against people they perceive of as evil.

People are jumping on (3), because they see that as the key to solving (1) and (2).  The argument that solving (3) is the key to solving (1) and (2) frequently isn't made, because it's taken to be obvious.

I'd like to take on (4), but there don't seem to be too many takers, either because people think it's harder than (3), or because they think (3) is the main contributor to (4).

[Baldwinschild]

Sure there's bigotry on earth. Because humans are human. What I'm thinking about more lately is not what causes bigotry (as the left obsesses about) but more how many different ways does it operate, exist, coexist with requirements of acceptable behavior.?
Casual observing:
Our daughter has a Chinese-American best friend from high school days. It's an inner city school, very diverse. When daughter came home from hanging out with the family, she'd say 'they're fun people, we have a blast together, but they are bigoted." "Against who?' "White people." "Wow, and you are comfortable around them?" "Yes, very. It's obvious they like me. Maybe they're too comfortable and that's why they let me see the bigotry. They make fun of white people as a category. For example, we order the stupidest thing on the menu. But they try to  make sure I know they don't mean us.' It interested me, because it seems that while certain American families, like this one that makes a nice living from American whites and others by  owning and operating several Chinese Food Restaurants, they don't feel the need to see themselves as free of bias. Nor are they looking for utopia. They're also not doing what black and white liberal America are doing now, either. They're not to the same extent infiltrating college curricula to overhaul our unconscious thinking habits.They're not trying to get more recognition for national holidays that honor their advocates. Their not getting Hollywood involved, or kneeling at football games. They stick together but they also circulate. They believe in the family unit and their crime rate is low. They're not making heroes out of the dregs among them as some blacks have done.  They're making money, running businesses, playing in orchestras, scoring high on SAT exams. Their attitude, when it's on the more swaggering or insolent side, might be more like 'hey white person, if there's a racial problem between you and me, it's yours. I'm OK.'
The anti-racism trend now appears to be the property of certain blacks. They want it, and they want to require you to jump through its hoops to prove you are not a hopeless misanthrope. And they're being egged on by liberal whites, and I don't think it's going to help them have better lives. The liberal whites are getting confused about what they believe or are eager to be part of a budding in-crowd.

Wow.  Lot of "they" in this.  Just wow.

[mahagonny]

Let's start from the beginning.

1) The primary problem is police brutality, particularly against black people.

Police brutality is equally wrong when done to anyone of any race. That is being overlooked.

2) A secondary problem is collective failure to care about or notice police brutality, particularly when the victims are black.

I would argue that there's a failure to care about police brutality in general, but the police brutality received by George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks has gotten tons of attention. I doubt you can name one individual who doesn't care. And the law has certainly done its part.

Accuracy please. Feelings are not facts.

[Hegemony]

Oh, for Pete's sake. All lives matter! Yes, they do! And there is a disproportionate amount of police brutality aimed at black people! ("But, you see, black people, well, they bring it on themselves by ... sleeping in bed, or going jogging!  They should stop other black people being criminals if they never want to be identified as a criminal!")  Yeah, and white people should stop other white people from being complete jackasses and unaware bigoted monstrosities, but oh, if only we could.  Apparently we can't.

[mahagonny]

Oh, for Pete's sake. All lives matter! Yes, they do! And there is a disproportionate amount of police brutality aimed at black people!

This is something I keep hearing, but never with credible sources/numbers identified. I need more information to believe it.
How are we calculating this? By blacks being only some 13% of the population but receiving more than 13% of the brutal treatment? That might be assuming that only 13% of the encounters with policemen involve blacks, or that there isn't more criminal activity in black neighborhoods. Which I have never seen anyone show.

Oh, for Pete's sake. All lives matter! Yes, they do! And there is a disproportionate amount of police brutality aimed at black people! ("But, you see, black people, well, they bring it on themselves by ... sleeping in bed, or going jogging!  They should stop other black people being criminals if they never want to be identified as a criminal!")  Yeah, and white people should stop other white people from being complete jackasses and unaware bigoted monstrosities, but oh, if only we could.  Apparently we can't.

I guess I get the larger point...sorta. Perhaps you'd elaborate.

[Baldwinschild]

Oh, for Pete's sake. All lives matter! Yes, they do! And there is a disproportionate amount of police brutality aimed at black people!

This is something I keep hearing, but never with credible sources/numbers identified. I need more information to believe it.
How are we calculating this? By blacks being only some 13% of the population but receiving more than 13% of the brutal treatment? That might be assuming that only 13% of the encounters with policemen involve blacks, or that there isn't more criminal activity in black neighborhoods. Which I have never seen anyone show.

Oh, for Pete's sake. All lives matter! Yes, they do! And there is a disproportionate amount of police brutality aimed at black people! ("But, you see, black people, well, they bring it on themselves by ... sleeping in bed, or going jogging!  They should stop other black people being criminals if they never want to be identified as a criminal!")  Yeah, and white people should stop other white people from being complete jackasses and unaware bigoted monstrosities, but oh, if only we could.  Apparently we can't.

I guess I get the larger point...sorta. Perhaps you'd elaborate.

You could do some research;  It isn't hard to find.  No one has to deliver the information to you.  Also, I put the sentence about criminality in boldface just because it stood out.  Shame on you. 

[Economizer]

Well, I live in a comfortable and beautiful smallish Souhern city with classic and modern architecture that embraces a history earned over two centuries. There has been social and societal change while the character and calmness of the town has been for the most part uninterupted. Topple what, rally against what, who are these that want what, why really? I have come to wonder whether the young and old, rich and poor, black and white, visitors, and those on assignments would absolutley hate any rapid or radical change here? Uhhh..bar owners, nightlife opportunists, maybe?