Attendance in Fall F2F given COVID-19

[mythbuster]

This Fall, my university is running large classes in remote format, but smaller classes and labs we are still on track for F2F meetings. The issue that we are predicting is students who don't feel comfortable coming to F2F class, and in particular F2F labs. Since we have to give the students in quarantine an remote option to complete this component of the course, what is stop many students from just opting for the remote option if they think it will be easier (Often a false assumption). We used to require attendance in labs- there were even attendance points you could use. But now- that's not reasonable way to go.
   Does anyone here have any ideas of how to deal with this issue? How do we require lab attendance while being flexible but not so much that we get exploited?

[marshwiggle]

This Fall, my university is running large classes in remote format, but smaller classes and labs we are still on track for F2F meetings. The issue that we are predicting is students who don't feel comfortable coming to F2F class, and in particular F2F labs. Since we have to give the students in quarantine an remote option to complete this component of the course, what is stop many students from just opting for the remote option if they think it will be easier (Often a false assumption). We used to require attendance in labs- there were even attendance points you could use. But now- that's not reasonable way to go.
   Does anyone here have any ideas of how to deal with this issue? How do we require lab attendance while being flexible but not so much that we get exploited?

This is trying to square a circle. It's pointless and impossible.

The sane situation is to have two options:
1.Require attendance at f2f labs if it is considered essential to the learning, and the rules apply to everyone.
2. If online labs can be a reasonable alternative for learning, then everyone does online labs.
Which option is chosen can vary by course.

[the_geneticist]

This Fall, my university is running large classes in remote format, but smaller classes and labs we are still on track for F2F meetings. The issue that we are predicting is students who don't feel comfortable coming to F2F class, and in particular F2F labs. Since we have to give the students in quarantine an remote option to complete this component of the course, what is stop many students from just opting for the remote option if they think it will be easier (Often a false assumption). We used to require attendance in labs- there were even attendance points you could use. But now- that's not reasonable way to go.
   Does anyone here have any ideas of how to deal with this issue? How do we require lab attendance while being flexible but not so much that we get exploited?

This is trying to square a circle. It's pointless and impossible.

The sane situation is to have two options:
1.Require attendance at f2f labs if it is considered essential to the learning, and the rules apply to everyone.
2. If online labs can be a reasonable alternative for learning, then everyone does online labs.
Which option is chosen can vary by course.

Or if the class has multiple sections, make it clear which are in person and which are online.  Students have to choose when they register.  Of course, I think that means you need more than one instructor (one for f2f, one for online).

None of this "everyone can choose any option at any time!" nonsense.

[Caracal]

This Fall, my university is running large classes in remote format, but smaller classes and labs we are still on track for F2F meetings. The issue that we are predicting is students who don't feel comfortable coming to F2F class, and in particular F2F labs. Since we have to give the students in quarantine an remote option to complete this component of the course, what is stop many students from just opting for the remote option if they think it will be easier (Often a false assumption). We used to require attendance in labs- there were even attendance points you could use. But now- that's not reasonable way to go.
   Does anyone here have any ideas of how to deal with this issue? How do we require lab attendance while being flexible but not so much that we get exploited?

This is trying to square a circle. It's pointless and impossible.

The sane situation is to have two options:
1.Require attendance at f2f labs if it is considered essential to the learning, and the rules apply to everyone.
2. If online labs can be a reasonable alternative for learning, then everyone does online labs.
Which option is chosen can vary by course.

Or if the class has multiple sections, make it clear which are in person and which are online.  Students have to choose when they register.  Of course, I think that means you need more than one instructor (one for f2f, one for online).

None of this "everyone can choose any option at any time!" nonsense.

I think we're conflating a few different things.

At my large state school, classes in the fall are either hybrid or fully online. (and fully in person only in a few cases) I know people at smaller schools where it just isn't possible to do that so they are planning ways to allow students who can't come to campus or class to to be fully online. I don't think anyone is really contemplating just allowing students to decide how much they want to come to class. The idea is that the professors would work out a separate plan for those students. Ditto for split hybrid courses. The idea is you're expected to come to class once a week, not that you can whether to do each day online or not.

The separate issue is how to handle attendance. I think we can all agree that we don't want to have policies encouraging students to come to school if they have even mild symptoms that could be COVID. Effectively that is going to mean a lot more people not coming to class. I'm anticipating it is going to result in me missing a lot more classes. Probably, I'm just going to require students who have symptoms to just write to me that they aren't coming and then I'll excuse the absences.

I can see how this gets more complicated for things like labs, but I think it's the kind of thing where we all probably just have to accept that things are going to not be ideal and make the best of it.

[arcturus]

I think we're conflating a few different things.

At my large state school, classes in the fall are either hybrid or fully online. (and fully in person only in a few cases) I know people at smaller schools where it just isn't possible to do that so they are planning ways to allow students who can't come to campus or class to to be fully online. I don't think anyone is really contemplating just allowing students to decide how much they want to come to class. The idea is that the professors would work out a separate plan for those students. Ditto for split hybrid courses. The idea is you're expected to come to class once a week, not that you can whether to do each day online or not.

The separate issue is how to handle attendance. I think we can all agree that we don't want to have policies encouraging students to come to school if they have even mild symptoms that could be COVID. Effectively that is going to mean a lot more people not coming to class. I'm anticipating it is going to result in me missing a lot more classes. Probably, I'm just going to require students who have symptoms to just write to me that they aren't coming and then I'll excuse the absences.

I can see how this gets more complicated for things like labs, but I think it's the kind of thing where we all probably just have to accept that things are going to not be ideal and make the best of it.

There is a major logic fail here. If, correctly, we do not want students coming to class if they have symptoms, we cannot require students to attend class.  For classes where attendance is required to have access to lab equipment, to perform (music/dance/art), to engage in sensitive topics (where the act of recording will, perforce, silence some of the class), etc., it is not clear how to simultaneously require and not require attendance.  For lab courses, in the past, it was usual to assign a grade of "I" and have students make up the material later if they were not able to complete the work on time due to illness or other catastrophic event.  However, this becomes a nightmare if many people opt out of the weekly labs. There needs to be a plan in place if a large fraction of the class chooses not to attend (some for legitimate reasons, others because they can). I do not posit a solution, but mythbuster's concerns, as stated in the OP, are valid.

[Caracal]

I think we're conflating a few different things.

At my large state school, classes in the fall are either hybrid or fully online. (and fully in person only in a few cases) I know people at smaller schools where it just isn't possible to do that so they are planning ways to allow students who can't come to campus or class to to be fully online. I don't think anyone is really contemplating just allowing students to decide how much they want to come to class. The idea is that the professors would work out a separate plan for those students. Ditto for split hybrid courses. The idea is you're expected to come to class once a week, not that you can whether to do each day online or not.

The separate issue is how to handle attendance. I think we can all agree that we don't want to have policies encouraging students to come to school if they have even mild symptoms that could be COVID. Effectively that is going to mean a lot more people not coming to class. I'm anticipating it is going to result in me missing a lot more classes. Probably, I'm just going to require students who have symptoms to just write to me that they aren't coming and then I'll excuse the absences.

I can see how this gets more complicated for things like labs, but I think it's the kind of thing where we all probably just have to accept that things are going to not be ideal and make the best of it.

There is a major logic fail here. If, correctly, we do not want students coming to class if they have symptoms, we cannot require students to attend class.  For classes where attendance is required to have access to lab equipment, to perform (music/dance/art), to engage in sensitive topics (where the act of recording will, perforce, silence some of the class), etc., it is not clear how to simultaneously require and not require attendance.  For lab courses, in the past, it was usual to assign a grade of "I" and have students make up the material later if they were not able to complete the work on time due to illness or other catastrophic event.  However, this becomes a nightmare if many people opt out of the weekly labs. There needs to be a plan in place if a large fraction of the class chooses not to attend (some for legitimate reasons, others because they can). I do not posit a solution, but mythbuster's concerns, as stated in the OP, are valid.

Those things don't contradict each other. You can both communicate to students that you generally expect them to come to class, and structure the class accordingly, and also provide a lot more flexibility than normal for absences. I contemplated not taking attendance, but I think that would lead to a feeling that class was optional. Instead, I'm just going to require students to write me if they aren't well and I'll count them as attending. Will some students lie? Sure, but I suspect I'll still get better attendance than if I just didn't count it.

You're right that this is more complicated for some classes than others. But, I think the basic principle is that this is not an ordinary semester and various things are not going to be ideal. The actual solutions are going to depend on the class, but there are obviously things you can do ranging from only requiring students to do x number of labs/performances, to regularly scheduled make ups, to some alternative assignment.

[marshwiggle]

You're right that this is more complicated for some classes than others. But, I think the basic principle is that this is not an ordinary semester and various things are not going to be ideal. The actual solutions are going to depend on the class, but there are obviously things you can do ranging from only requiring students to do x number of labs/performances, to regularly scheduled make ups, to some alternative assignment.

By your own rules, you can't do that, because people have to be able to STOP doing labs after any number of them. (Unless, of course, X=0)

[polly_mer]

I don't think anyone is really contemplating just allowing students to decide how much they want to come to class.

You're not reading the articles in Inside Higher Ed and The Chronicle of Higher Education that I am.  That's exactly what some full-flexibility administrators are asserting should be the case for students.

No one gets to go extra to an in-person session to which they are not assigned, but several articles had assertions by different folks that students should get to decide to not go to class for any reason and the instructor is supposed to figure out how to make it work.

The basics of the HyFlex model is exactly

In HyFlex courses, students decide when and how they participate – that is, for each and every class meeting they can choose to sit in the classroom or to join via videoconference (Zoom, Adobe Connect) in real-time, or they can watch the recording and complete online activities later.

Reference: https://philonedtech.com/covid-19-planning-for-fall-2020-a-closer-look-at-hybrid-flexible-course-design/

[HyFlex model] aims to make sure that students aren't penalized from a learning standpoint if they move back and forth between in-person and online participation in the class, from week to week or even class session to class session. Instructors essentially must build a fully online course and a face-to-face version, with the same learning outcomes in both.

Reference: https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2020/05/13/one-option-delivering-instruction-if-campuses-open-fall-hyflex

In a HyFlex course, courses are delivered both in person and online at the same time by the same faculty member. Students can then choose for each and every class meeting whether to show up for class in person or to join it online. The underlying design ethos behind the HyFlex Model is flexibility and student choice.

Reference: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/learning-innovation/fall-scenario-13-hyflex-model

But, yeah, no one would do something so crazy except the true believers who have been working on this model for almost 15 years and see that its time has come.

[polly_mer]

Those things don't contradict each other. You can both communicate to students that you generally expect them to come to class, and structure the class accordingly, and also provide a lot more flexibility than normal for absences. I contemplated not taking attendance, but I think that would lead to a feeling that class was optional. Instead, I'm just going to require students to write me if they aren't well and I'll count them as attending. Will some students lie? Sure, but I suspect I'll still get better attendance than if I just didn't count it.

How many lab classes have you taught?

How many of those lab classes were absolutely required prerequisites for future courses that are absolutely required to graduate and then be a professional in the field?

You're generalizing from a very different type of education that doesn't require a passing grade to mean specific proficiencies have been demonstrated at a given level in order to succeed for all subsequent activities.

The question here isn't really attendance/not attendance.  The question here is how to ensure that students learn enough of what has to be done in person to be a true pass while still reducing risk to everyone else involved and not requiring professors to essentially teach every single student as an individual section.

[Bonnie]

I think we're conflating a few different things.

I don't think anyone is really contemplating just allowing students to decide how much they want to come to class.[/b] The idea is that the professors would work out a separate plan for those students. Ditto for split hybrid courses. The idea is you're expected to come to class once a week, not that you can whether to do each day online or not.

Actually, this is what they hyflex model so many are talking about does. Here's Beatty's latest on the model (though he first introduced the idea in 2006 or so: https://edtechbooks.org/hyflex/). It is very different than what most people think of when they think hybrid. It also demands a different set of skills for the instructor. And, as even Beatty says, it takes a lot of planning/development time. But it is the unspoken expectation at my university. It's going to be a mess.

[Cheerful]

I don't understand Caracal's recent posts on this except that they indicate how flawed and incomplete are "the plans" of many universities.  Colossal mess and many things are yet to be officially finalized.

At my U, "the current plan" is cameras and microphones shall be installed in each of the few classrooms where courses will convene some in-person meetings.  Students can attend these either in-person or Zoom in from their dorm or home base.  Wherever they reside, or however they're feeling, students can't be compelled to attend in-person.  Though I have not seen details on science labs, etc. and in-person instruction usually required for state/national licenses and certifications.

[marshwiggle]

Perhaps I can illustrate the lab situation with the example of a "lab" for hockey. (I'm a Canadian; sue me.)

So, "in-person" would involve on-ice instruction, with equipment. The "online" version would be playing a hockey video game.

Both versions of the lab could do a decent job of teaching the rules and the basic strategy of the game. However, the "skills" developed in the two versions would be completely disconnected.

The in-person labs would include things like skating drills (we'll assume eveyone has to be able to skate beforehend), shooting drills (learning slapshots, wrist shots, backhands, etc.), and actual games.

The video game labs would include learning the button or keystroke sequences for slapsots, wrist shots, backahnds, etc. as well as the controls for basic movement, and playing games.

Even though people would learn "skills" related to the same idea, such as taking a slapshot, the in-person and online skills would not be remotely interchangeable. Learning how to take a (physical) slapshot would give no insight into the button/key sequence to do it in the video game, and vice versa. So, a person who started "in-person" and partway through switched to the video game would be starting from scratch in the video game skills. Similarly a person who started with the video game would be starting from scratch if they switched to in-person. (For a simple example: imagine the final "lab" was playing in a tournament. If a person who had never played on ice switched to in-person for the tournament, they'd be totally useless. Similarly, if someone who never played the video game switched to the final video game tournament, they'd get crushed.)

To be clear: both options (playing for real or playing the video game) would probably be enjoyable for someone who had some interest in hockey, and both would teach rules and strategy. However, it would be entirely impossible to mix and match at will, and only a completely clueless administrator would even propose such a thing.

[kaysixteen]

Hmmm... it does seem to me that a lot of these admins proposing these things are panicking, trying to get many kids to come back to campus whilst acknowledging the reality that all will not be able to do so, and some who do will at some point have to stop coming due to covid exposure.  This presumably results from a fear that many students and/or their parents will balk at paying for another year of online ed, esp if the tuition rate remains the same, and take gap years or the like, just not do it, etc., when many of these schools would really not be able to take the financial hit... Some of these ideas are nutty, and some reflect a stunning refusal to recognize that some classes simply cannot adequately be accomplished online, either.  Marshy gives a particularly illustrative  example re: hockey, and many such examples keyed to actual academic subjects could easily be provided.

[quasihumanist]

It's no secret that, for most colleges and universities, the closer they come to becoming a diploma mill, the less money they lose.

Now that the finances are more precarious, administrators are understandably more nervous about simply going belly up, and therefore care even less about becoming an actual diploma mill.

[mythbuster]

OP here. Thank you all for your voicing of the ludicrous nature of this situation. It really is heartening.
      To give a bit more context, this came up in part because our lab instructors are having issues this summer with entirely on-line labs. Apparently students are trying to get extensions for assignments based on "not feeling well", "anxiety that I may have been exposed", etc.  The faculty reporting this is one for whom I always apply a solid dose of salty skepticism. I believe this is happening, I just think that they likely are not handling the issue well. But it does raise the issue of what to do this Fall in a F2F lab, with the student who doesn't feel well vs the student that overslept, had a flat tire etc. in contrast to the student who is in quarantine.  IMO, it all is a slippery slope that ends up with us all in the pool of online delivery. 
     We are having a meeting with our chair later this week. He has been meeting with the chairs of other science departments as well as studio art. Hopefully, we will at least come up with some common policies to use across courses. I'm not yet optimistic that in person labs will be scrapped. But, just today, our city joined the ranks of those with a mask ordinance- which I never thought would happen given local politics. So who knows what yet may occur.
   If others have ideas on how to deal with this, please keep them coming.