Curious logic for large online classes

[downer]

One of my schools has decided that most fall classes will be online. But they are not reducing class size. Often class sizes are in the mid 40s, which everyone acknowledges is too large for an online class.

The solution? They are saying that teaching should be synchronous, meeting at the regular class time. Assignments should be similar to what would happen in a regular f2f class. This will "solve" the problem of having a large class.

Despite my optimistic world view, I am feeling inquizitive about this "solution." I'm not quite sure how it works. Is it really feasible?

[marshwiggle]

One of my schools has decided that most fall classes will be online. But they are not reducing class size. Often class sizes are in the mid 40s, which everyone acknowledges is too large for an online class.

The solution? They are saying that teaching should be synchronous, meeting at the regular class time. Assignments should be similar to what would happen in a regular f2f class. This will "solve" the problem of having a large class.

I find this bizarre. Asynchronous delivery would be much more amenable to larger class sizes than synchronous delivery, since it doesn't require everyone to be connected at the same time.It sounds more to me like administrators just want to have everything look as similar as possible to normal operation to make it seem like students are getting the same value for money.

[arcturus]

I think breakout rooms in zoom may be more productive for class discussion than trying to have group discussion while physically distancing and wearing masks. I am losing my hearing, so it is very difficult for me to pick up on different conversations in large groups. Having students "shout" (or, at the very least, speak in loud voices in order to be heard) to their group-mates while other groups are carrying on similarly loud conversations (and the class next door, as well) would be very difficult for me.  In contrast, in a zoom breakout room, students can speak at normal levels (yes, there is the occassional wash-out from low bandwidth) and I can drop in and out of their conversations more easily.  In this context, a synchronous online course does mirror a face-to-face class better than asynchronous online. However, that does not mean that it is the best choice!

[spork]

One of my schools has decided that most fall classes will be online. But they are not reducing class size. Often class sizes are in the mid 40s, which everyone acknowledges is too large for an online class.

The solution? They are saying that teaching should be synchronous, meeting at the regular class time. Assignments should be similar to what would happen in a regular f2f class. This will "solve" the problem of having a large class.

Despite my optimistic world view, I am feeling inquizitive about this "solution." I'm not quite sure how it works. Is it really feasible?

No. It is relatively straightforward to design a good synchronous F2F course or a good asynchronous online course. Doing both simultaneously is extremely difficult. Your administration is probably assuming that live video of a professor lecturing is all that's needed to accomplish this objective.

[polly_mer]

I agree with Spork that the assumption is a lecture and some automated grading. 

The rise of mega classes (way more than 40 students and may be literally thousands of students) has been a thing for several years now.  For example, Central Florida has been proud of offering live streamed courses to allow courses well above the room capacity.

Research on how to inject active learning into mega classes for physics and astronomy is pretty common and has been for a decade.


The techniques are different for online courses than in person.

The logistics are different for larger courses than smaller courses to do active learning.

However, it's not absurd to have an online, synchronous course of only 40 students for faculty who have kept up with the research and thus can do more than one standard teaching technique.

[Zeus Bird]

Synchronous lecture-based classes could certainly be done for mid-to-large size classes.  My uni, following the lead of many of the edu-consultants, however, is telling faculty that if any students are unable to participate in synchronous online classes, faculty need to be ready and willing to make individual asynchronous accommodations for those students.  With dozens of students potentially falling into that category, that is where the paradigm of large online classes will break down quickly.

[downer]

Personally, I haven't been a fan of in-class lectures for a long time. They can be good (and I actually really enjoy using the Great Courses for my own edification) but I've long felt that I might just as well record something and play it to the students. The idea of doing 75 minute Zoom meetings wasn't attractive to me last semester and it still isn't.

I think I might record some mini-lectures, assign some useful youtube videos, and then do 30 minute Zoom class discussions. Maybe breakout disussion sections could work too. I guess I won't be using the Discussion Board for weekly assignment, thought I will use it for some assignments.

Regarding the research on syncrhonous teaching online, I haven't looked at it at all. To be honest, it's not worth my time. I have taken some training sessions in online teaching though, so presumably the teachers have implemented the lessons of that research.

Here's a practical question. Due to a rather unusual circumstance, I can choose whether to use Blackboard or Canvas to teach. I've not used Canvas before. My impression is that it is a bit better than Blackboard. But is the difference between the two enough to make it worth switching to Canvas?

[mamselle]

I've used both (2 years ago).

They're each a pain in their own way; I don't find either one to be very good at formatting, basic input, or structuring links so things fall into the order you want students to see them in.

Maybe they've gotten a little better, but they're what we have so they're what we have to work with.

Others might have better workarounds; I gave up half-way through the second year and just emailed things (and MADE students look at their emails in class to see them: that seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur, with the "I don't look at my emails" seen to be the equivalent of "you didn't send it to me in my preferred format so it's not there" as an excuse I should accept (I don't).

When they say that, by the way, I'll say, "But you answer your phone, right? And your phone gives you a signal when you have a new email, right? So open the email when it arrives and we'll be fine."

M.

[Parasaurolophus]

Your administration is probably assuming that live video of a professor lecturing is all that's needed to accomplish this objective.

Yeah, it sounds like they expect you to just record your regular synchronous class and post the recording. (Whether that's consistent with local privacy laws is another matter. I'm pretty sure it's not consistent with ours, but it looks like nobody knowledgeable here has looked into it.)


FWIW, my classes are all three hours long (yes, even at the intro level), most of my students are home with 12.5 hours difference in time zones and working full-time, and my rural internet struggles a bit with large meetings. For those reasons I've gone fully asychronous for the summer semester (and the tail end of winter). It's been OK, but far from ideal, even where online education is concerned. My students definitely flounder without some contact and synchronous guidance. So I think what I'll do in the fall, since we're online again, is host a single synchronous hour of class each week, with the other two hours covered by recorded lectures/videos. I'll make it a sort of discussion section during scheduled course hours. It's more work on my end than being completely asynchronous, but I think it will help on their end, and it goes some way towards addressing the time difference and internet problems.

[downer]

I've used both (2 years ago).

They're each a pain in their own way; I don't find either one to be very good at formatting, basic input, or structuring links so things fall into the order you want students to see them in.

Maybe they've gotten a little better, but they're what we have so they're what we have to work with.

Others might have better workarounds; I gave up half-way through the second year and just emailed things (and MADE students look at their emails in class to see them: that seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur, with the "I don't look at my emails" seen to be the equivalent of "you didn't send it to me in my preferred format so it's not there" as an excuse I should accept (I don't).

When they say that, by the way, I'll say, "But you answer your phone, right? And your phone gives you a signal when you have a new email, right? So open the email when it arrives and we'll be fine."

M.

Thanks M. Sounds like I don't need to go to the effort of learning Canvas for the fall since it won't make much difference.

I think I will prepare online lectures and slide shows with voiceover, and keep the synchonous elements to a minimum.

[ciao_yall]

Your administration is probably assuming that live video of a professor lecturing is all that's needed to accomplish this objective.

Yeah, it sounds like they expect you to just record your regular synchronous class and post the recording. (Whether that's consistent with local privacy laws is another matter. I'm pretty sure it's not consistent with ours, but it looks like nobody knowledgeable here has looked into it.)

Interthreaduality - how can you achieve "regular and effective contact" with a class that has recorded lectures and robo-graded quizzes? Now we are talking financial aid and accreditation issues.

[FishProf]

Does arguing with students about why the answer they put down was wrong, and I cannot give them credit for what they 'meant to' or 'promise I' put down count as "regular and effective contact"?

This is regular, but I doubt it is effective,

[arcturus]

Does arguing with students about why the answer they put down was wrong, and I cannot give them credit for what they 'meant to' or 'promise I' put down count as "regular and effective contact"?

This is regular, but I doubt it is effective,

In my experience, it is regular but not effective. However, while this would probably count as "false" in a logic class, it may still be sufficient to be "true" in edu-speak.

[quasihumanist]

You do realize that we are the only people who care whether the students learn anything.  (Well, there are a few students who care, and I suppose somewhat more students if you sufficiently dilute the meaning of 'anything'.)

[downer]

I hope I didn't give the impression I care whether they learn anything. I just get paid to teach them, not for them to learn.