Advise Aspiring Grad Students

[clean]

If you are taking out loans to supplement your funding package, then what is the minimum salary you will need to pay them back assuming your funding stays the same and you finish in an average amount of time. Now add three years. Is that a reasonable starting salary in your area in higher ed or in your industry?

this is the kind of research anyone considering graduate should do before mailing in the first application package and fee! 

(I never say never on loans because not everyone is independently wealthy or coming from money or has family support and grad school cannot continue to be for the privileged.)

The program should be able to support its students.  There is no need to depend on personal or family wealth.  IF the program can not fund its PhD students, then that calls into question whether that field is worth pursuing.  (If there are too many students to fund, then there will be too many graduates to employ!)

Master's programs should at least cover tuition for students willing to accept assistantships and work for the department in some capacity.    (or have good career paths) 

[glowdart]

Clean, by that logic no lower class kids would go to grad school. There are legitimate expenses that are just harder to cover when you do not come from a middle-class or higher background. You know, like root canals & medical copays & research trips & printing your dissertation & rent at an apartment on the bus line. Those expenses are things that all of higher education expects people to just be able to cover while making $18,000 a year because there's a default assumption that students have access to other support — because they come from money.

When we destroy the assumptions underpinning all of higher education in this country then we can recommend grad students acquire no debt and have all of their expenses covered by the grad program. And until that happens, not everyone can afford school without some assistance beyond institutional funding.

I will not delude people into thinking they should be able to survive grad school without loans because their middle-class classmates can, nor will I tell them not to go to grad school because they have no family support and the grad stipend isn't enough to cover emergencies.

[polly_mer]

Those expenses are things that all of higher education expects people to just be able to cover while making $18,000 a year because there's a default assumption that students have access to other support — because they come from money.

Why are we assuming an $18k stipend for grad students?  I ask because when I was in grad school, the range of stipends being offered extended above $18k/year.  I turned down my original first choice for offering a laughable stipend in a high cost-of-living area in favor of a close second choice where my stipend was much closer aligned to the cost of living and was above $18k twenty years ago.

One way to gauge a really healthy program is whether they pay a livable stipend for the time and energy commitment required or whether they have a reasonable part-time arrangement that allows students to work a regular 40-hour-per-week job to pay for living expenses.

[clean]

You know, like root canals & medical copays & research trips & printing your dissertation & rent at an apartment on the bus line.

Live ON Campus in the Graduate dorms (like I did)!!  NO need to be on the bus line. Get a meal plan (like I did!) and eat on campus (no need to grocery shop, or wash dishes and you save time to study as you are not cooking and cleaning)
Student health fee pays for medical treatment.  I got great health care while in graduate school from the student health center doctors right on campus... just a block from graduate student housing!   

One way to gauge a really healthy program is whether they pay a livable stipend for the time and energy commitment required

This was the point. 
I dont know what the current stipends are in my discipline as we dont offer a PhD in my discipline where I work.  One of my students went to graduate school about 10 years ago and she was getting closer to $30,000 a year plus tuition waivers.  If she were offered only $18000 a year, I would have recommended she find another school or program!!

You either live like a graduate student while in graduate school, or you live like one after you graduate and struggle to repay your debt.  But if one chooses the latter, then they struggle to pay for health issues (as there is no longer a student health center to count on) and you take the bus because you cannot afford the student loan payment, rent and a car payment.

[marshwiggle]

Clean, by that logic no lower class kids would go to grad school. There are legitimate expenses that are just harder to cover when you do not come from a middle-class or higher background. You know, like root canals & medical copays & research trips & printing your dissertation & rent at an apartment on the bus line. Those expenses are things that all of higher education expects people to just be able to cover while making $18,000 a year because there's a default assumption that students have access to other support — because they come from money.

When I was a grad student, my funding (including TAing) came to about $17000, if I recall.
AND THAT WAS IN THE 80'S! (I actually paid off my small undergrad loan during that time, and bought a car.)

If a grad program can't fund you so that you don't need other money, borrowed or begged, then it's not a good idea.

When we destroy the assumptions underpinning all of higher education in this country then we can recommend grad students acquire no debt and have all of their expenses covered by the grad program. And until that happens, not everyone can afford school without some assistance beyond institutional funding.

I will not delude people into thinking they should be able to survive grad school without loans because their middle-class classmates can, nor will I tell them not to go to grad school because they have no family support and the grad stipend isn't enough to cover emergencies.

My family was working class; my mother was a widow, and so family support was never an option.

[Puget]

Live ON Campus in the Graduate dorms (like I did)!!  NO need to be on the bus line. Get a meal plan (like I did!) and eat on campus (no need to grocery shop, or wash dishes and you save time to study as you are not cooking and cleaning)
Student health fee pays for medical treatment.  I got great health care while in graduate school from the student health center doctors right on campus... just a block from graduate student housing!   

I know you mean well with your financial advice Clean, but it often seems like you are often assuming the reality that exists or long ago existed for you (low cost housing markets, grad dorms with cheap meal plans) exists universally, when this is far from true.

This is simply not an option for most grad students-- there are no graduate dorms at my grad, postdoc or faculty institutions, nor anyplace I interviewed for as a grad student or faculty member, with the sole exception of Columbia (where even faculty mostly live in university-owned buildings because it's so damn expensive). Most do not even have on campus housing for all undergrads, let alone grad students. My grad institution did/does have apartments grad students can rent, but they were basically market rate, and mostly for the benefit of international students with no US credit history who found renting commercially difficult.

Nor is a meal plan often a good deal compared with feeding yourself economically-- e.g., our full meal plan adds up to nearly double what I spend on groceries each month, and I'm not trying to be frugal as a faculty member-- I ate even cheaper in grad school.

I managed to live on my stipend in grad school without loans (and even save a little) by living in a tiny studio apartment, not having a car, only rarely going out for meals, and doing cheap/free things for fun (luckily an area with lots of outdoor activities). But I recognize that that probably wouldn't have been possible in an even higher CoL area, or if I hadn't consistently had summer funding (which was not guaranteed), or had unexpected costs crop up.

[apl68]

I have to agree with Puget that living on a grad stipend is very tough.  I WALKED to work each day (So no bus fare, though it was necessary to have a car for other travel), hardly ever ate out (and then only at the cheapest places with friends), certainly didn't take the expensive meal plans at the college, worked additional jobs on campus, and never saw the doctor for any reason.  And STILL had to borrow some money from my parents to make ends meet.  The amounts were very modest, but still not easy for them.  Had I come from a poorer background, or not been so healthy, it's not unlikely I would have ended up with loan debt. 

Of course the biggest problem in my case was that our institution's "fully funded" positions didn't last long enough for most PhDs to finish.  If your funding ran out and you weren't a favored recipient of a couple of extended funding opportunities, all you had available to you was some shamefully underpaid grading work.  This work never went begging, since there was always a pool of desperate PhD students whose funding had run out.  I worked out so well for the school that I still can't help suspecting that the setup was intentional.

[clean]

like you are often assuming the reality that exists or long ago existed for you (low cost housing markets, grad dorms with cheap meal plans) exists universally, when this is far from true.

But they DO exist, even today.  IF one place doesnt have them, then go to the place that does!  You do not HAVE to borrow to get a PhD.  AND as has been stated by me and others, IF the program doesnt support its graduate students so that they HAVE to borrow, then the program or the major are not worth pursuing.  There is usually another way.  The easy way or the most publicized way is not necessarily the best way!

living on a grad stipend is very tough

I agree.  If it was easy, even more people would do it!  (and what would that do to the academic job markets?)  Nothing about graduate school was 'easy' (at least in my experience!  It took persistence to complete!)  But borrowing is not necessarily the financial answer.  As apl68 points out, there was work available. It may not have paid well, and certainly the university took full advantage of the situation, but there was something available that did not require everyone to borrow. 


In the end, I am not trying to say that no one should have to borrow anything, ever.  It is quite possible that in the last year the expenses of interviewing and finishing the degree may exhaust your initial savings you may have had from the years of work you did before going to graduate school, especially if you have the dental or medical issues.  However, Im talking about borrowing no more than $15K... and only for the last year when you are months away from landing that full time, tenure track job.  But the graduate stipends should be enough to cover your basic living expenses of food, shelter, clothing and transportation, or go to another program or dont go at all in that discipline, if it is truly an oversupplied area (and a bad investment).

THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES to borrowing.  Find the other paths.

[Puget]

like you are often assuming the reality that exists or long ago existed for you (low cost housing markets, grad dorms with cheap meal plans) exists universally, when this is far from true.

But they DO exist, even today.  IF one place doesnt have them, then go to the place that does!  You do not HAVE to borrow to get a PhD.  AND as has been stated by me and others, IF the program doesnt support its graduate students so that they HAVE to borrow, then the program or the major are not worth pursuing.  There is usually another way.  The easy way or the most publicized way is not necessarily the best way!

I'm sorry, but this is a stupid short-term thinking way to pick a PhD program. I'm not saying to go into debt*-- as I noted I did not-- but you certainly shouldn't pick a program based on the availability of dorms! You need to pick the place with the best mentor, research resources, training and reputation that sets you up for the best postdoc (if applicable in your field) and (academic or non-academic) job.

If, and only if, you're field has a good job market in and outside of academia, taking on some doubt may be a rational investment.

[clean]

You need to pick the place with the best mentor, research resources, training and reputation that sets you up for the best postdoc (if applicable in your field) and (academic or non-academic) job.

Maybe I am reading too much into the word "best" (which may not be affordable/cost efficient, anyway).  There may well be a 'best' but in my mind there are usually several programs that are at a very similar level with respect to their mentors, resources, training and reputation. These would be very good substitutes.  However, the funding and cost may not be the same. It is incumbent on the applicant to the research to make the 'best' financial decision and evaluate the total package (of the total  costs and total benefits )  of the program, especially if/when there are good substitutes available.

[octoprof]

You need to pick the place with the best mentor, research resources, training and reputation that sets you up for the best postdoc (if applicable in your field) and (academic or non-academic) job.

Maybe I am reading too much into the word "best" (which may not be affordable/cost efficient, anyway).  There may well be a 'best' but in my mind there are usually several programs that are at a very similar level with respect to their mentors, resources, training and reputation. These would be very good substitutes.  However, the funding and cost may not be the same. It is incumbent on the applicant to the research to make the 'best' financial decision and evaluate the total package (of the total  costs and total benefits )  of the program, especially if/when there are good substitutes available.

This. For example, in my field if you are paying tuition to go to a PhD program, something is terribly wrong.

[Puget]

You need to pick the place with the best mentor, research resources, training and reputation that sets you up for the best postdoc (if applicable in your field) and (academic or non-academic) job.

Maybe I am reading too much into the word "best" (which may not be affordable/cost efficient, anyway).  There may well be a 'best' but in my mind there are usually several programs that are at a very similar level with respect to their mentors, resources, training and reputation. These would be very good substitutes.  However, the funding and cost may not be the same. It is incumbent on the applicant to the research to make the 'best' financial decision and evaluate the total package (of the total  costs and total benefits )  of the program, especially if/when there are good substitutes available.

This. For example, in my field if you are paying tuition to go to a PhD program, something is terribly wrong.

Yes of course, I didn't even consider that because no one pays tuition for PhD programs in my field, and stipends also tend to vary within a fairly narrow range. And of course if all things really were equal it would probably* make sense to pick the place with the lowest cost of living relative to stipend, but at least in my field where students are accepted directly into labs, you really should pick the best lab for your interests and aspirations, regardless of location. And of course location can change unexpectedly as students often go with the advisor if the advisor moves institutions.

*I say probably because some low CoL areas are low CoL for a reason, and I don't think you should have to be miserable for 5+ years, or people have geographical constraints for family or other reasons.

[polly_mer]

And of course if all things really were equal it would probably* make sense to pick the place with the lowest cost of living relative to stipend, but at least in my field where students are accepted directly into labs, you really should pick the best lab for your interests and aspirations, regardless of location.

People should also check on the placement rate into the desired jobs.  I know far too many people in my areas of STEM who picked the most prestigious school in the most desirable city, went into debt, and then couldn't get a job at an equally shiny school or similar institution because those jobs are indeed absurdly competitive.  It's true that almost everyone who gets one of those jobs comes from a handful of programs, but most people who graduate from those programs aren't getting the desired jobs.

Unfortunately, having spent so much time in the rarified atmosphere, even when they deign to consider other jobs, those folks tend to strike out in the other job markets.  The people who go to the much more modest institutions with lower cost of living tend to do better on the overall job market because they aren't  hemmed in as much by needing to live in rarefied atmosphere with a high enough wage to cover high cost of living and high debt payments.

Spending a few years doing something interesting in graduate school and then having to find an interesting enough bill-paying job is a much more positive situation than sacrificing everything, ending up in debt, and then not being able to get a job that both uses the degree directly and pays enough to cover now and all the debt.

I'm with Clean on this one: only go if they are paying enough for you to live and the odds are very good that situation will continue long enough for you to finish the degree.

[glowdart]

Halve what you made business & science people and that's what people get paid in the humanities. While you were making 20-30k, we were making 8-12k.

It's time for a privilege check here, folks. Paying enough for a middle class "you" to live on does not mean that a lower class, unsupported, starting out at an economic disadvantage "you" can survive just as easily.

Do you seriously think poor people don't already know how to live while being underpaid? It's not about finding a cheap apartment. It's about having zero financial safety net.

[octoprof]

It's time for a privilege check here, folks. Paying enough for a middle class "you" to live on does not mean that a lower class, unsupported, starting out at an economic disadvantage "you" can survive just as easily.

This.

It's not about finding a cheap apartment. It's about having zero financial safety net.

And this.