Advising students on grad school?

[JFlanders]

Any suggestions for compassionately advising students (at a mid-to-low-tier SLAC) who're considering grad school in the humanities because they've "just always wanted to be a professor"? 

I have read all the articles, seen all the job-market stats, and would feel really unethical not cluing such students in to at least a little of that information.  On the other hand, it's definitely not the message they want to hear,  and it seems like it requires a very careful delivery to avoid messenger-shooting blowback (plus, if word got around, possible anger from colleagues who'd perceive it as undermining the status of the profession).   How much should I err on the side of tact vs. transparency?

[marshwiggle]

Any suggestions for compassionately advising students (at a mid-to-low-tier SLAC) who're considering grad school in the humanities because they've "just always wanted to be a professor"? 

I have read all the articles, seen all the job-market stats, and would feel really unethical not cluing such students in to at least a little of that information.  On the other hand, it's definitely not the message they want to hear,  and it seems like it requires a very careful delivery to avoid messenger-shooting blowback (plus, if word got around, possible anger from colleagues who'd perceive it as undermining the status of the profession).   How much should I err on the side of tact vs. transparency?

How much would you like them to come back to you in 5-10 years to tell you about their career outcomes, resulting from choices based on your recommendations?

[downer]

I'd tell them they they should go to grad school with hopes of becoming a professor if they can do it for free, and also get a stipend for their expenses.  But it would be a bad idea to go into debt to do it.

Maybe also ask them what they think professors mostly spend their time doing, and see whether that matches reality.

[polly_mer]

If you can get students to make an appointment with you, then give them an assignment.


Have them read http://northwesthistory.blogspot.com/2011/11/open-letter-to-my-students-no-you.html and look up the current numbers for your field.

Have them read http://100rsns.blogspot.com/p/complete-list-to-date.html.

Have the students research 3-5 specific graduate programs that they as individuals have a good shot at getting into with full funding,

Students should then bring to your meeting a minimum two-page document addressing their specific plans with numbers and why the readings don't actually apply to them.

Use the document to have a targeted discussion about the high probability outcomes for those students.

Some students should be pointed to a recent list of quit lit for your field as being additional relevant information to help construct their document.

[Caracal]

Any suggestions for compassionately advising students (at a mid-to-low-tier SLAC) who're considering grad school in the humanities because they've "just always wanted to be a professor"? 

I have read all the articles, seen all the job-market stats, and would feel really unethical not cluing such students in to at least a little of that information.  On the other hand, it's definitely not the message they want to hear,  and it seems like it requires a very careful delivery to avoid messenger-shooting blowback (plus, if word got around, possible anger from colleagues who'd perceive it as undermining the status of the profession).   How much should I err on the side of tact vs. transparency?

Before this turns into the usual mess...

Just like any advice, it will only be useful if you listen and respond to the student. That's the fundamental problem I have with all of the "don't go to grad school" articles that supposedly are what students "need to hear." Nobody  needs to hear a self important screed about the profession and the future of the humanities. And no, wanting to be a professor is not like winning the lottery. It doesn't seem like it ought to be impossible to give students useful advice without resorting to hyperbole.

So, I'd start by figuring out what the student actually means when they say they want to be a professor. Do they want to be a professor because they have a deep interest in the field and have started to identify a particular area they want to specialize in and questions they want to answer? Or is it just that school is a thing they've always been good at and they imagine being a professor is a way to keep doing that? If its the latter, I usually explain that grad school is all about specialization and that grad programs want students who already are thinking that. You won't get in, or succeed, in a good program just because you like novels or history. If teaching appeals, then grad school is hardly the best path.

This, of course, is where you would also mention the all the obvious stuff that you might move directly into with a student who seems like they might be better suited to grad school. It takes at least six years and then when you get out the job market is bad, and it isn't getting better. This is where I think the "no you can't be a professor" type screeds are counterproductive. It is wrong, and the problem is that the person delivering the message proves it is wrong, as does a cursory look at the stats. Generally showing contempt for people, while you lie to them is a bad way to get them to pay attention to you. Maybe you'll get a job, but the job market is bad and it isn't getting better. (This is where you might want to go to the job report for your discipline and mention some relevant depressing stats) What that means is that there's no real way to predict if you'll be lucky and good enough to get one of these jobs. The problem is that there are tons of other good candidates out there. And this is after 6+ years of grad school. etc. etc.

I've mentioned to current students that they can actually spend a year thinking about this and separate out grad school decisions from the panic about what they are going to do next year. This might actually be especially relevant now when I can imagine the idea of remaining in a safe institution has a lot of appeal to some students in a very uncertain time. I don't think it helps people to think of their decisions as binary. They can decide to not go to grad school for now without closing off the possibility forever.

If this is just a sort of exploratory conversation, I'd stop there and suggest the student think about it for a while. There's other advice about fellowships and programs and guaranteed funding, but it falls more in the category of harm mitigation for a student who is determined to go to grad school.

[Caracal]

If you can get students to make an appointment with you, then give them an assignment.


Have them read http://northwesthistory.blogspot.com/2011/11/open-letter-to-my-students-no-you.html and look up the current numbers for your field.

Have them read http://100rsns.blogspot.com/p/complete-list-to-date.html.

Have the students research 3-5 specific graduate programs that they as individuals have a good shot at getting into with full funding,

Students should then bring to your meeting a minimum two-page document addressing their specific plans with numbers and why the readings don't actually apply to them.

I just think this is an oddly confrontational approach. The student wants some advice, not to be yelled at. And god, don't have them read that letter unless you want them to go to grad school just to wipe the smirk off that jerk's face.

[aside]

Transparency with tact.

[Caracal]

If you can get students to make an appointment with you, then give them an assignment.
Have the students research 3-5 specific graduate programs that they as individuals have a good shot at getting into with full funding,

In all humanities disciplines I'm aware of, this wouldn't make much sense. A student who has no realistic shot at getting into the top tier of programs shouldn't go to grad school.

[marshwiggle]

Just like any advice, it will only be useful if you listen and respond to the student. That's the fundamental problem I have with all of the "don't go to grad school" articles that supposedly are what students "need to hear." Nobody  needs to hear a self important screed about the profession and the future of the humanities. And no, wanting to be a professor is not like winning the lottery.

Maybe you'll get a job, but the job market is bad and it isn't getting better. (This is where you might want to go to the job report for your discipline and mention some relevant depressing stats) What that means is that there's no real way to predict if you'll be lucky and good enough to get one of these jobs. The problem is that there are tons of other good candidates out there. And this is after 6+ years of grad school. etc. etc.

How is this not like winning the lottery? (People can "win" free tickets and smaller prizes at higher rates than the big jackpot. So some of those are about as likely as academic jobs.)

If this is just a sort of exploratory conversation, I'd stop there and suggest the student think about it for a while. There's other advice about fellowships and programs and guaranteed funding, but it falls more in the category of harm mitigation for a student who is determined to go to grad school.

It's hard to see how describing something as "harm mitigation" supports the idea of not being overly pessimistic about students' chances.

[polly_mer]

If you can get students to make an appointment with you, then give them an assignment.
Have the students research 3-5 specific graduate programs that they as individuals have a good shot at getting into with full funding,

In all humanities disciplines I'm aware of, this wouldn't make much sense. A student who has no realistic shot at getting into the top tier of programs shouldn't go to grad school.

Exactly.  That was the point of suggesting the basic research.


I agree about having a conversation.  I disagree that the conversation could possibly productive if it's only based on feelings in the absence of data.

Remember that Caracal is an adjunct who thinks that faculty are upper-middle class folks.

Having people actually do research and apply the critical thinking skills they were supposed to learn is only confrontational if one objects to using data to make decisions.

[Caracal]

Remember that Caracal is an adjunct who thinks that faculty are upper-middle class folks.

Please stop the weird ad hominem attacks. Seriously, it is really off putting and unpleasant. I believe you've been previously warned about this by moderators.

[Wahoo Redux]

My experience in exactly this arena is that it won't really matter what you say.

People's minds are made up.  If a student wants to apply to graduate school in the humanities, hu will.

For a few people there is simply no other place to go---they simply cannot be anything but a "professor/intellectual/artist"---and these people probably should spin the dice.  They will be miserable in any other sphere of life; even if they fall into the dreaded adjunct swamp they will be better off than if they went into real estate or whatever.

Tell them that if there is conceivably anything else they can do in life, do it, at least for now.  Graduate school will (likely) be there in the future.

Do explain the college closings, the job market and the certainty it will get worse in the future, near and far, and the reality of living on adjunct wages.  Tell them to get into an Ivy or other elite school.  Tell them not to go.  But if they insist on going, help them with their application.

And yes, tell them no debt.  Grad students really, really need teaching experience in the humanities to get a job----so TA or bust.

[Wahoo Redux]

Remember that Caracal is an adjunct who thinks that faculty are upper-middle class folks.

Please stop the weird ad hominem attacks. Seriously, it is really off putting and unpleasant. I believe you've been previously warned about this by moderators.

Why this upsets Polly so much I'll never know.

[spork]

Using "I want to be an English professor" as an example:

Ask the student to calculate percentage change from 1976 to 2017/18 from each of the following:

Figure 1, MLA Job Information List, 2017–18: Final Report. (Also illustrative are Figures 4 and 5.)

NCES Digest, Table 303.10. Total fall enrollment in degree-granting postsecondary institutions, by attendance status, sex of student, and control of institution: Selected years, 1947 through 2029.

The student should respond with something along the lines of "Number of positions decreased by nearly half while total enrollment nearly doubled."

Decrease in number of positions advertised with MLA + increase in total student enrollment = English instruction at the post-secondary level is now mostly a part-time profession.

Then tell the student the per course compensation for English adjuncts at your university. Provide a list showing the number of full-time English faculty and the number of part-time English adjuncts.

Then ask the student to look at where tenured faculty at a few different universities that are currently advertising open positions obtained their undergraduate and doctoral degrees.

[mamselle]

Maybe also point out that multivocational options exist: they can do some work, learn to do research at the level they want to be able to do it, and then go on to do something else that pays well and lets them do the research and some teaching as it arises.

"Being a professor" can mean doing good-quality research, and good-quality teaching, and still making a living in other ways, if that's what works.

In some fields, it's called tentmaking.

It's not easy, but neither are the "standard" paths to upper-level teaching professions.

It's possible to break the lockstep between the degree (agreed, get it without cost whenever possible) and the form of the profession usually described as "TT" when that is either not available, or turns out not to be possible in a given setting.

Above all else, do no harm.

M.