lab fees mostly labor? IHE

[the_geneticist]

Remind me what exactly a lab science college class done entirely online actually consists of, and how valuable, for the students, such a class could possibly be?

Well, as long as the lab meets the same learning goals (experimental design, observations, analysis, group work etc.) I think an online lab can work rather well.  Especially if you could supplement with some lab kits sent to each student.  I've had a lot of success with several methods: students designing investigations/experiments that we conduct & film for them to analyze; using statistics to analyze published data sets; using online tools to design DNA primers; observing diverse animals from online videos & images & building a phylogeny; students conducting "kitchen science" & creating presentations.  Granted, they aren't able to touch the equipment, but I'm more interested in having them learn to think like scientists (how to ask questions, analyze data, reach conclusions, ponder what to do next).

As for lab fees, I would LOVE if we could use lab fees to send out lab kits.  But our department is optimistically hoping that we'll be back to in person instruction soon-ish.  The logistics of sending kits to 1000+ students in just my 2 lab courses are a bit intimidating. 

We used to use the model of "every lab is $50 & cheaper ones subsidize the spend-y ones".  But not anymore.  Now, lab fees are supposed to be spent only on that particular lab.  When we switched to the new direct support, we learned that lab prep had hoarded a rather large pot of funds that we had to spend out.  Got a lot of nice equipment for my non-majors lab out of that one.

[kaysixteen]

Random thoughts and questions:

1) So your lab fees do *not* pay for the students' sent-home kits?  Does this mean students are actually charged more for the online course than they would have been for a ftf one, because there would be an extra charge for the kits?  This seems like it would even exacerbate the socioeconomic divide that might actually keep more lower SES students from being able to complete such courses and stay on track for their degrees?

2) What sort of at-home facilities or living quarters, would the average undergrad need to have access to, in order to properly use one of these kits?

3) How much will the student learn, when he does his kit assignment, without there actually being a physical professor there to check his work and help him?

4)Dear alma mater, as part of its adjustments made for the upcoming semester, has altered the number of courses students must take per semester.  Ever since 1968, when the school went to two semesters plus a January term 'winter-study', as opposed to before this, when all courses were full-year, like most high schools, the school has had the requirement of taking 4-1-4 courses.   Students have to take an extra course if they failed one the previous semester, and can petition to take an extra course if they are in good standing (though such petitions may not be accepted).  There are no academic 'credits'-- students simply need to pass 32 regular semester courses and 4 winter studies (or an extra semester course, to cover for a failed winter study).  All courses count exactly the same, regardless of subject, level of course, lab or no lab, etc.  But for this year, the school has made a significant change, actually 2-- winter study has been cancelled, largely to eliminate having to be around in Jan.  (fall will end at Thanksgiving, which is three weeks before usual), AND the regular semesters' course reqs have been lowered to three each (though students will be allowed to still take 4).  IOW, apparently because of a view that ol classes are harder, more stressful, etc., for the kids, they will have to take less of them... and will of course be getting less of an education.  Is this an accurate assessment, in you all's eyes?

[polly_mer]

In answer to kaysixteen,

2) The whole point of kitchen science kits is one mostly needs a square foot or two of counter.  You don't need a lot of space.  However, having toddler or elderly helpers is generally not recommended and is probably a bigger problem than just space.

3) You're really missing the point of labs if you think you need a professor standing right at your elbow.  Either those are very poorly designed labs or you're being too timid regarding the scientific thinking parts.  As a veteran of labs overseen by graduate TAs who did not speak or understand English anywhere near fluency, the labs while in progress are not necessarily being taught in any way.  You need the professor when you're doing the analysis while writing the lab report.

[marshwiggle]

In answer to kaysixteen,


3) You're really missing the point of labs if you think you need a professor standing right at your elbow.  Either those are very poorly designed labs or you're being too timid regarding the scientific thinking parts.  As a veteran of labs overseen by graduate TAs who did not speak or understand English anywhere near fluency, the labs while in progress are not necessarily being taught in any way.  You need the professor when you're doing the analysis while writing the lab report.

I just finished a course with asynchronous labs, and all of my courses (remote) for nrxt year will have asynchronous labs. The adavntage that gives (with "home kits") over in-person labs is that there aren't the time constraints. While the labs will still be designed to be completed within the same length of time, there will be a window for completion that is much wider. (Probably Tuesday morning until Thursday evening). This allows students to try things, and email questions if they have them, all within the window (unless they are overconfident and wait until Thursday evening to start.)

Further to Polly's point, the best situation is where students have to spend time figuring things out for themselves as much as possible before consulting the instructor, because the main learning comes from that process rather than getting questions answered. And the more they understand before asking questions, the more useful the answers can be.

[apl68]

Likewise, 'kitchen' geology, physics, and biology can be done with shipped kits and online interactives, but those are not sufficient for students who need specific prerequisites.

This conjures visions of students conducting labs at home using those break-your-own-geode and terrarium-in-a-box kits you see in hobby stores.  I assume the interactives you're referring to are more sophisticated than that.

Have you seen https://phet.colorado.edu/?  I used many things from there during regular labs for non-majors to really explore what's supposed to happen in the model.

So that's what some virtual labs look like, huh?  Looks like an interesting way to start getting familiar with concepts, at least.  Still doesn't look like anywhere near as much fun as the hands-on activities we got to do in science classes growing up.  Of course we had the good fortune at our school to have science teachers who knew how to make things interesting and showed some enthusiasm for their subject.

[the_geneticist]

To answer Kay's questions:
1) We are not charging any lab fees for our online classes.  $0 cost. 
We are NOT sending out kits (as of now).  But if we did, we would have to charge a fee to cover the cost of the materials & postage.

2) Again, the entire idea of the kit is that everything you need is in the kit.  OK, a student will need things like a pen & paper to take notes or a cup of tap water, but those are standard household items.

3) Why would you need a professor to watch over you?  The entire point is to explore.  A good kit is one where there are several approaches and no one "correct" answer.  For example, lets say the kit has some table salt, a measuring spoon, 2 plastic cups, a stir stick, and a thermometer.  The student has access to: a timer on their phone & tap water.  The investigation is "What factors influence how salt dissolves in water?".  The student chooses what variable to explore (temperature, stirring, volume of water, etc.), writes down their design, sets up their experiment, records their observations, & writes their conclusions. 
You'd use the class time before lab to discuss their ideas and the class time after lab to discuss their findings.  Students LOVE having some autonomy and ownership of their lab projects.

[kaysixteen]

Yeah, but they do need (and deserve) the general oversight of a professor, or at least of a TA.   This would be especially true in the case of freshman-level classes.   Excessive 'autonomy' leads effectively to the promulgation and maintenance of error, which would be very very hard to correct later, esp when/ if the student does not realize (because there's been no professional to see this and tell him) that he has made such an error.

[polly_mer]

The great thing about a good science activity is it is self-correcting. 

Gravity never pulls thing up.  The cold water never dissolves the salt faster than the hot water.  The acid, lemon juice, never imitates the behavior of the base, baking soda.

Even for things that somehow don't work, the consequences for a gen ed course are very low.  Thinking that heavy objects fall faster in earth's gravity, even after doing all the activities related to surface area and air resistance, doesn't really matter for most people who are not physicists or engineers.

Even doing all the activities in the classroom with me repeatedly saying the desired science fact, people will still get wrong the same misconceptions.  Two decades of physics education research indicates that even direct personal experience during a lab coupled with formal instruction will not overcome a lifetime of thinking incorrectly for many things.

"The reason for the seasons is the tilt of the earth" coupled with demos galore still has people insist that the sun is closer to the earth in the summer.  Pointing out that the two hemispheres have opposite seasons tends to result in nods and still the question is answered wrong on the test.

[the_geneticist]

Yeah, but they do need (and deserve) the general oversight of a professor, or at least of a TA.   This would be especially true in the case of freshman-level classes.   Excessive 'autonomy' leads effectively to the promulgation and maintenance of error, which would be very very hard to correct later, esp when/ if the student does not realize (because there's been no professional to see this and tell him) that he has made such an error.

Well, the lab classes have both a TA and a main instructor for support (and grading, and posting materials, etc).  But that doesn't mean they need to be on Zoom/Skype/whatever to observe the student.  The only "errors" in an observation-based investigation is when the investigation doesn't address the question or if a student tries to ignore their own observations.  Like Polly said, cold water will never dissolve salt faster than hot water.  The students can judge for themselves if their data support or do not support their predictions.  It's valuable to teach students that our predictions can be incorrect, that's a great way to learn.

[PScientist]

If you haven't spent your class time repeatedly explaining to different students that "north" and "up" are different directions, or that 1 mile is a longer distance than 36 inches even though 36 is a bigger number than 1, you haven't taught a first-semester physics lab at a non-selective institution.  Yes, I am being serious.  I suspect that is the kind of "error" that kaysixteen is talking about.  Those conversations have to happen somewhere.

[polly_mer]

If you haven't spent your class time repeatedly explaining to different students that "north" and "up" are different directions, or that 1 mile is a longer distance than 36 inches even though 36 is a bigger number than 1, you haven't taught a first-semester physics lab at a non-selective institution.  Yes, I am being serious.  I suspect that is the kind of "error" that kaysixteen is talking about.  Those conversations have to happen somewhere.

What are you doing during online recitation if not explaining at length how to divide by 10 on the calculator for the third time in a row?

Yes, I've encountered all those questions and during lab is still not the time for those questions.  Lab has questions like 'how do you use a ruler/thermometer/mechanical pencil?' and effectively 'how about you just do it, professor, and I'll watch?'

[kaysixteen]

Yeah, Pscientist is correct.  Basic errors made by beginners in science class would be essentially the same as those made by beginners in a language class.   Without reasonably quick correction by the teacher, they can grow, and become entrenched.

[the_geneticist]

Yeah, Pscientist is correct.  Basic errors made by beginners in science class would be essentially the same as those made by beginners in a language class.   Without reasonably quick correction by the teacher, they can grow, and become entrenched.

That still doesn't mean I need to be there to watch them.  Making mistakes is part of learning.
If a student kills their bean seeds by putting them in the microwave, then they have learned that beans cannot survive being microwaved.

[apl68]

Yeah, Pscientist is correct.  Basic errors made by beginners in science class would be essentially the same as those made by beginners in a language class.   Without reasonably quick correction by the teacher, they can grow, and become entrenched.

That still doesn't mean I need to be there to watch them.  Making mistakes is part of learning.
If a student kills their bean seeds by putting them in the microwave, then they have learned that beans cannot survive being microwaved.

Better learning that lesson with bean seeds than with some poor, unfortunate small quadruped...

[marshwiggle]

Yeah, Pscientist is correct.  Basic errors made by beginners in science class would be essentially the same as those made by beginners in a language class.   Without reasonably quick correction by the teacher, they can grow, and become entrenched.

That still doesn't mean I need to be there to watch them.  Making mistakes is part of learning.
If a student kills their bean seeds by putting them in the microwave, then they have learned that beans cannot survive being microwaved.

Or that you will be there to watch them. Short of starting a fire or electrocuting a lab partner, most of what individual students do will happen when the instructor is somewhere else in the room, and won't be obvious to the instructor. So the idea that instructors will see something being done wrong and fairly immediately correct it is invalid most of the time. (And in cases like the fire/electrocution, by that time the damage has already been done.)