claim: students will not party because they want to do the right thing

[Caracal]

I know this is not universal, but students here do really seem to want to do the right thing, and so far so good-- nearly 8000 tests of more than 3000 people so far in August (most in the past week with move in-- about half the students are on campus and the rest remote), and a grand total of 4 positive tests. Monday will be my first day on campus-- it will be weird being back, but I do think we have a good chance of doing this safely. Everyone is being tested twice a week, and students have to show a color coded "passport" on their phone at the start of class, which indicates they are current with their tests and symptom survey.

My place is also coming in at just about 1/1000 positives of new arrivals (from elsewhere or from WFH/summer). Positives are immediately isolated and contact tracing is done so the spread is very limited. It may work yet. Research universities that can test everyone at least weekly in house have a significant advantage. New arrivals have to quarantine, but only until their test comes back negative. That is typically one night, not two weeks.

Still, many are worried about house parties that become superspreader events.

If you're well resourced enough, and you are in one of the few area of the country without a really high rate of infections, you at least have a chance. It may still be a bad idea, but the whole thing may not be doomed from the beginning.

[spork]

"like 30 kids nationwide get pre-admitted into the Hussman School of Journalism. That was what made it worth it for me. I wasn't just doing requirements. I'm taking media and journalism classes." -- "just doing requirements" = gen ed requirements. Yet another student who perceives them as expensive and useless.

[marshwiggle]

First-year student at Chapel Hill on her experience: https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/08/college-campus-diary-covid-19.html

Even though they were masked, the pictures with the article shows cheek-to-cheek selfies and tight group shots. They are not avoiding infection at all!

That was my thought as well. It should be noted by people convinced most students will "try to do the right thing" that even students who might "try" to do the right thing can still be totally clueless about what that is. Specifically, the idea that there are NO EXCEPTIONS to rules obviously escapes a lot of people. The rules for "social" situations are the exact same rules as for "school" or "work" situations.

[waterboy]

I find it really difficult to understand anyone who says they don't understand the "rules". We've been at this since January (March in the US).  You'd have to have been hiding under a rock to not "know" the rules.  You can disagree and/or flout the rules, but by now, you sure as heck know them.

[mahagonny]

If I were running a college I would prohibit any and all alcoholic beverages anywhere on campus for the immediate future. Penalty, expulsion. Then I would advertise 'come to our school. You'll be in-person, and safer.' There is an abundance of evidence going back to the beginning of recorded history showing that alcohol impairs judgment and reduces inhibition. This is one time when inhibition is your friend. Everyone's.

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses. You can see this by following the discussions on social media. The students' misbehaving is an excuse to stay home, not commute and take it easy. You can also tell some of them wouldn't shy away from a lawsuit against the school if the opportunity came along. They expect that eventually things will get back to normal and they'll have a job. All they're going to lose is some prep time. Others (part-timers) have lost prep time, income, and may lose employment altogether.

[the_geneticist]

I find it really difficult to understand anyone who says they don't understand the "rules". We've been at this since January (March in the US).  You'd have to have been hiding under a rock to not "know" the rules.  You can disagree and/or flout the rules, but by now, you sure as heck know them.

Out of fairness to the students, there are logistical complications that make it difficult if not nearly impossible to maintain social distancing and avoid shared spaces or shared surfaces.  Just think of dorms with all the shared bathrooms, hallways, & laundry facilities.  All the doorknobs, elevator buttons, etc that everyone touches.  Shared dining facilities - even if they are running students through for "grab & go only" like it's a water stop at a marathon means shared time in an enclosed space for 100s-1000s of students.  And then they are supposed to just stay in their room & only unmask in front of their roommate?  College isn't supposed to be like prison.  They would have better luck grouping students into "pods/teams/squads-of-learning" and have them eat & socialize in these groups.  Better to have some sanctioned socializing in set groups than trying to enforce 0 mingling.

[Bonnie]

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses. You can see this by following the discussions on social media. The students' misbehaving is an excuse to stay home, not commute and take it easy. You can also tell some of them wouldn't shy away from a lawsuit against the school if the opportunity came along. They expect that eventually things will get back to normal and they'll have a job. All they're going to lose is some prep time. Others (part-timers) have lost prep time, income, and may lose employment altogether.

Sounds like a shitty place to work if that's a large percentage of your full time faculty. Where I work, full time faculty are working their asses off. Still learning technology, spending more time on prep, spending more time supporting students, missing being in the classroom, missing being with their colleagues, extremely concerned about the financial well being of the institution, worried about decreased scholarly productivity, spending more time on internal service, and generally being good eggs. And in several cases I know of, full time faculty spent unpaid time this summer to build online shells of courses for part time faculty to use this semester.

[mahagonny]

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses. You can see this by following the discussions on social media. The students' misbehaving is an excuse to stay home, not commute and take it easy. You can also tell some of them wouldn't shy away from a lawsuit against the school if the opportunity came along. They expect that eventually things will get back to normal and they'll have a job. All they're going to lose is some prep time. Others (part-timers) have lost prep time, income, and may lose employment altogether.

Sounds like a shitty place to work if that's a large percentage of your full time faculty. Where I work, full time faculty are working their asses off. Still learning technology, spending more time on prep, spending more time supporting students, missing being in the classroom, missing being with their colleagues, extremely concerned about the financial well being of the institution, worried about decreased scholarly productivity, spending more time on internal service, and generally being good eggs. And in several cases I know of, full time faculty spent unpaid time this summer to build online shells of courses for part time faculty to use this semester.

Oh, my goodness....unpaid time to shore up the functioning of the institution that will provide comfortably for them for all of their natural life. Wow. Give them an award.

[clean]

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses

I wonder if those working for the schools listed in the Furlough thread have the same lack of concern about the university's finances?

[mahagonny]

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses

I wonder if those working for the schools listed in the Furlough thread have the same lack of concern about the university's finances?

When you're due to get furloughed or not renewed, you start caring in a hurry.

[Caracal]

I find it really difficult to understand anyone who says they don't understand the "rules". We've been at this since January (March in the US).  You'd have to have been hiding under a rock to not "know" the rules.  You can disagree and/or flout the rules, but by now, you sure as heck know them.

What rules exactly? There aren't "rules" so much as a series of general principles that most of us try to follow, while balancing various tradeoffs. The problem is that everyone assumes that however they are doing this must be the correct way and doesn't account for the ways in which these tradeoffs vary by circumstances.

Most of us know that indoor spaces are risky and have been trying to avoid spending prolonged time in them as much as possible. Easy enough for me. We don't have people in our house and don't go inside anyone else's house. That becomes a lot more complicated if you're living in a tiny room with someone else and another 20 people on your floor alone.

Similarly, wearing a mask in indoor or crowded spaces is a lot easier if you can count on not running into anyone other than family on your way to and from the shower.

College students like all of us need to interact with people. They are away from home, some for the first time, in spaces specifically set up to avoid physical distancing. We shouldn't condemn them for not always making the perfect choices in a very difficult situation.

[Bonnie]

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses. You can see this by following the discussions on social media. The students' misbehaving is an excuse to stay home, not commute and take it easy. You can also tell some of them wouldn't shy away from a lawsuit against the school if the opportunity came along. They expect that eventually things will get back to normal and they'll have a job. All they're going to lose is some prep time. Others (part-timers) have lost prep time, income, and may lose employment altogether.

Sounds like a shitty place to work if that's a large percentage of your full time faculty. Where I work, full time faculty are working their asses off. Still learning technology, spending more time on prep, spending more time supporting students, missing being in the classroom, missing being with their colleagues, extremely concerned about the financial well being of the institution, worried about decreased scholarly productivity, spending more time on internal service, and generally being good eggs. And in several cases I know of, full time faculty spent unpaid time this summer to build online shells of courses for part time faculty to use this semester.

Oh, my goodness....unpaid time to shore up the functioning of the institution that will provide comfortably for them for all of their natural life. Wow. Give them an award.

Are you always an ass? You posted a rant about the privileged yet non contributing full time faculty. I posted a counter. I posted about full time faculty doing their jobs, doing their jobs well, and contributing unpaid labor. And you found a reason to dismiss that work. What is your problem?

[polly_mer]

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses

I wonder if those working for the schools listed in the Furlough thread have the same lack of concern about the university's finances?

When you're due to get furloughed or not renewed, you start caring in a hurry.

And then it's far too late. The time to act is well before the problem.

A different thread asks about what people find ha-ha funny that they know they shouldn't.  I laugh every time contract/hourly workers miss the main reasons a healthy institution will prefer to have salaried professionals carrying the main creative load.

[mahagonny]

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses. You can see this by following the discussions on social media. The students' misbehaving is an excuse to stay home, not commute and take it easy. You can also tell some of them wouldn't shy away from a lawsuit against the school if the opportunity came along. They expect that eventually things will get back to normal and they'll have a job. All they're going to lose is some prep time. Others (part-timers) have lost prep time, income, and may lose employment altogether.

Sounds like a shitty place to work if that's a large percentage of your full time faculty. Where I work, full time faculty are working their asses off. Still learning technology, spending more time on prep, spending more time supporting students, missing being in the classroom, missing being with their colleagues, extremely concerned about the financial well being of the institution, worried about decreased scholarly productivity, spending more time on internal service, and generally being good eggs. And in several cases I know of, full time faculty spent unpaid time this summer to build online shells of courses for part time faculty to use this semester.

Oh, my goodness....unpaid time to shore up the functioning of the institution that will provide comfortably for them for all of their natural life. Wow. Give them an award.

Are you always an ass? You posted a rant about the privileged yet non contributing full time faculty. I posted a counter. I posted about full time faculty doing their jobs, doing their jobs well, and contributing unpaid labor. And you found a reason to dismiss that work. What is your problem?

My problem, both of ours actually, is I'm not as impressed with your story as you expected. Especially given that these full time instructors are typically getting paid more for the same type of work, and not more per hour by a matter of addition, but more my a matter of multiplication.

Where I work, some of the full time faculty are now used to teaching through zoom, and they don't care how much money the school loses

I wonder if those working for the schools listed in the Furlough thread have the same lack of concern about the university's finances?

When you're due to get furloughed or not renewed, you start caring in a hurry.

And then it's far too late. The time to act is well before the problem.

A different thread asks about what people find ha-ha funny that they know they shouldn't.  I laugh every time contract/hourly workers miss the main reasons a healthy institution will prefer to have salaried professionals carrying the main creative load.

We already knew that about you. But perhaps this is road we should not go down.

[marshwiggle]

I find it really difficult to understand anyone who says they don't understand the "rules". We've been at this since January (March in the US).  You'd have to have been hiding under a rock to not "know" the rules.  You can disagree and/or flout the rules, but by now, you sure as heck know them.

What rules exactly? There aren't "rules" so much as a series of general principles that most of us try to follow, while balancing various tradeoffs. The problem is that everyone assumes that however they are doing this must be the correct way and doesn't account for the ways in which these tradeoffs vary by circumstances.

Most of us know that indoor spaces are risky and have been trying to avoid spending prolonged time in them as much as possible. Easy enough for me. We don't have people in our house and don't go inside anyone else's house. That becomes a lot more complicated if you're living in a tiny room with someone else and another 20 people on your floor alone.

Similarly, wearing a mask in indoor or crowded spaces is a lot easier if you can count on not running into anyone other than family on your way to and from the shower.

College students like all of us need to interact with people. They are away from home, some for the first time, in spaces specifically set up to avoid physical distancing. We shouldn't condemn them for not always making the perfect choices in a very difficult situation.

No, but we should make plans based on what they are actually likely to do, not on their good intentions. So bringing students back on campus because they will "try" to act responsibly is ridiculous when experience indicates that their attempts will fall far short of what is needed to prevent outbreaks.

The goal is not to pat them on the head and say we trust them; it's to try and keep everyone safe. Even if that means impicitly admitting that compliance is not likely to be sufficient.