“Privilege” as cudgel in private conversation

[Treehugger]

Is calling out someone's supposed  "privilege" in private conversation amongst friends just the latest way to cloak one's jealousy? Has anyone else experienced this recently? Has it really come to this?

My experience, briefly:

I was with a close friend in person in her home for the first time since Covid back in March. She is a retired academic like me. She lives by herself with her lovely three cats and is even more introverted than I am. We have spoken on the phone frequently since March and not once had she mentioned missing going out.

Anyway, when I saw her, she started talking about Covid and everything that we are losing. So I asked her what she felt like she has lost. Her answer: "I miss going to the gym." (She has a lot of work out equipment at home, so I suppose it was the social aspect.) She followed this up with: "And I miss going to my massage therapist."

After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation. For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.

I didn't say all of the above during our conversation. I just said that I was happy that I had been able to learn Spanish. And guess what her response was?

Friend: Well, you are happy because you're in the top 1% (not true, technically) and you have privilege.
Me: Silence.
Friend: No, admit it it. You have privilege.

And I am thinking: "Are you jealous because you spent your lockdown watching Netflix while I learned another language?" Where else is this coming from? I mean it's not like this friend is either a person of color or economically disadvantaged in any way.

I have another, similar story but with a group of acquaintances. So, it's not a complete one-off I'm afraid.

[downer]

Here in the US we all nearly all have privilege compared to the bulk of the world population. Obviously, some have more than others.

Regarding your friend, was she saying that she does not have privilege? Doubtless you have advantages that others don't have. Her comment seems to suggest that you are not entitled to enjoy your position.

Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.

But it doesn't sound like you were being unsympathetic to people who are less fortunate or to her. And although your advantages allowed you to enjoy the opportunities provided by the lockdown, it was also your own enterprise and resourcefulness that helped you take advantage of them. It seems that she didn't want to acknowledge that.

But it seems a big generalization to go from what she said to saying that it is a national trend.

[mamselle]

I've never considered a massage or a gym membership within my budget, so I might have turned the comment around to say "we both are privileged is so many different ways...it's something to be grateful for, isn't it?"

M.

[Caracal]

Is calling out someone's supposed  "privilege" in private conversation amongst friends just the latest way to cloak one's jealousy? Has anyone else experienced this recently? Has it really come to this?

My experience, briefly:

I was with a close friend in person in her home for the first time since Covid back in March. She is a retired academic like me. She lives by herself with her lovely three cats and is even more introverted than I am. We have spoken on the phone frequently since March and not once had she mentioned missing going out.

Anyway, when I saw her, she started talking about Covid and everything that we are losing. So I asked her what she felt like she has lost. Her answer: "I miss going to the gym." (She has a lot of work out equipment at home, so I suppose it was the social aspect.) She followed this up with: "And I miss going to my massage therapist."

After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation. For one thing, since March, I have learned another language (Spanish), something I probably would never have done without Covid. Ok, I don't speak Spanish fluently, but now I've read Marquez and Llosa in Spanish, can at least get the gist of what people are saying on Spanish radio and through a online exchange program have met and am conversing with English language learners in Colombia and Peru.

I didn't say all of the above during our conversation. I just said that I was happy that I had been able to learn Spanish. And guess what her response was?

Friend: Well, you are happy because you're in the top 1% (not true, technically) and you have privilege.
Me: Silence.
Friend: No, admit it it. You have privilege.

And I am thinking: "Are you jealous because you spent your lockdown watching Netflix while I learned another language?" Where else is this coming from? I mean it's not like this friend is either a person of color or economically disadvantaged in any way.

I have another, similar story but with a group of acquaintances. So, it's not a complete one-off I'm afraid.

It sounds like your friend was frustrated with you, didn't really know how to articulate it, and ended up grabbing for something that doesn't really fit.

I think I can understand what your friend might have been feeling. I have very good friends I've know for a long time who also seem to be doing pretty well with all of this and I've also found myself pretty frustrated with them at times. It isn't that I'm having a particularly acute crisis, or am in a particularly bad situation. I'm managing, but I'm not seeing a lot of positives. That can make it a little jarring when someone else is doing just fine. One of the weirdest things about this is that everyone is dealing with the same event, but it effects people in dramatically different ways. That often leads to me feeling like people are judging me, either about how I'm handling things, or which considered risks I'm taking.

My guess is that your friend felt judged. She feels cooped up, is acutely missing the routine social interactions that used to be an important part of her day, and probably doesn't feel very productive. I'm sure you weren't judging her, or trying to seem disapproving, but if that's how she was feeling, it isn't going to feel great to hear that someone else is doing just great and using this as a chance to do "useful" and productive things.

[spork]

I don't know this person, but even in retirement she's probably within the world's top 1-2% when it comes to income: https://ourworldindata.org/global-economic-inequality. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. She can give away her life of privilege just as easily as you can.

[polly_mer]

Yep, I have a very privileged life.  Admitting that doesn't have to involve guilt or other negative feelings.

However, the only people I regularly encounter who attempt to use as a cudgel on me are:

* academics in the humanities and social sciences.  Not everyone in that group does it, but I can't think of a single instance of chemists, physicists, geologists, biologists, engineers, or mathematicians using my privilege as a cudgel.  The STEM folks will point out that only we privileged can help the underprivileged in many ways, but it's always an appeal to helping those who have been unlucky in birth or other ways through no fault of their own.

* people from my place of origin who want something from me and insist that somehow I owe them personally.  These are seldom people representing the groups I actually owe (e.g., the kith and kin who raised me, the schools, the libraries, the Girl Scouts).  Instead, these are usually individuals who made fun of my studying, my positive involvement with the organizations that helped me prepare for a different life, and in general disdained the very activities that led to me being very privileged as an adult after starting out eligible for free lunches.

* people who have a serious ax to grind that gives them some sort of power by representing the underprivileged.  For example, we had a Black Lives Matter protest here in our community of 10k people.  Per a recent demographic count, our community has about 100 Black individuals, almost all of whom are transplants who have jobs using their graduate degrees and their families. 

However, we have so many desperately poor communities and reservations within a two-hour drive that we have had standing programs for decades to support the region and help more people get as much education as they can hold including volunteers from my employer in droves.  However, again, the underprivileged folks in the region aren't Black and therefore focusing the national BLM or Defund the Police efforts locally is really insulting and doesn't help the people here who need a helping hand.

I've never had a professional massage or a gym membership.  I've been lucky that the pandemic hit when I have the job I have.  We would have been totally screwed if the pandemic had hit when we were just starting out.  Because of that recognition, we have been carrying all our tenants instead of insisting they pay rent they can't afford.

In fact, we have arranged for gift cards and food deliveries at various times in the past decade for tenants who couldn't afford rent because they were just so unlucky (e.g., employer closed in the small town, medical problems, death of the wage earner).  We have forgiven amounts of $10+k (more than a year) because there was just no way they could ever pay it back, even when they were back on their feet.

In the before times, we hosted dinners multiple times a week in our house and included people we knew were food insecure (students, retirees, the temporarily unlucky) along with everyone else. The point wasn't pity; the point was to have a pleasant evening and share what we have while ensuring that people weren't isolated.

We have frequently made up the difference in the grocery line when we've seen people have to make hard choices among necessities when the bill came to just a little too much.

We have sent money to kith and kin who raised us (or welcomed us as an adult) because we have plenty to share and they were having tight months/years.

We can do these things because we're privileged instead of barely scraping by.

We choose to do these things because we weren't always this privileged and we remember what it's like to be living in one room because that's all we can afford to heat and making food choices based on filling, cheap, and sufficient nutrition for this week.

I am fine with admitting that I've still been working my regular salaried job with a different emphasis on projects instead of having lots of privileged free time.  Thus, I've watched an absurd amount of television recently instead of going to the movies, visiting friends on holiday weekend trips, and participating in all the local community events.  I've already been hugely productive so I can sit on the couch with the TV on and post on the fora from my tablet.

[mahagonny]

Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.

But it doesn't sound like you were being unsympathetic to people who are less fortunate or to her. And although your advantages allowed you to enjoy the opportunities provided by the lockdown, it was also your own enterprise and resourcefulness that helped you take advantage of them. It seems that she didn't want to acknowledge that.

But it seems a big generalization to go from what she said to saying that it is a national trend.

I hardly think so, to put it plainly. Privilege is now something white people have to live down. White men, even more so. And pretty soon people who have never experienced the need to be gay, or a dire need to change their own gender, people who...(getting tired already). So we will be hearing this more and more in conversation. Zeitgeist.

Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.

An aside. Fast forward: it makes a difference what you do with your privilege. .Picture a year from now, Treehugger and her woke friend are hiking and they come upon a Spanish only speaking person who has just been stung by a bee and needs a shot of epinephrine soon or will die. Treehugger uses professor woke's cellphone, calls for help, and all three get their picture in the paper.

Here in the US we all nearly all have privilege compared to the bulk of the world population. Obviously, some have more than others.

This is what Candace Owens has been saying and I expect she'll get punished for it.

[ciao_yall]

I've never considered a massage or a gym membership within my budget, so I might have turned the comment around to say "we both are privileged is so many different ways...it's something to be grateful for, isn't it?"

M.

^ This.

That said, the line that was crossed was talking about "really enjoying the situation." Because of "the situation" people are dying , losing their jobs, health, livelihoods, sanity.

It's okay that it's working out okay for you, still, "really enjoying the situation" feels rather tone-deaf.

Out here there are horrible wildfires. "Well, I finally got to dump my house and old car because the fire burned them, so insurance paid out. Not sure what happened to my cat, but he was old anyway so saved some vet bills there! I'll take the cash and move somewhere else. Yay, wildfires!"

[mahagonny]

Lots of this get said every day that are tone deaf. Whether they're brought to light really depends on the prevailing winds, who's got the floor to call you out, how much noise are they willing to make, how many have the same beef.

A guy in my workplace was talking about how great it was to have a spring sabbatical followed by a summer with no teaching. I'm sure he thought he sounded grateful, but what I heard was 'you're writing another one of your silly books until May, then you're going birdwatching for the summer while I teach 9-5 for 1/3 of your pay.'

[downer]

There's a difference between accusing a friend of privilege in a private conversation and using the notion of a class privilege in a political context. OP is talking about the former.

I have a friend who has enjoyed the lockdown and was glad about no commute, more time with the kids, more time to write. I didn't take offense when they told me this. I've been more negatively affected, but nothing terrible. And I know people from NYC who were able to take advantage of their second home outside of the city once the pandemic got serious, or make use of a friend's spare place in a more rural setting. We all have it a lot better than people living in the projects, with a bunch of them in a small apartment, and nowhere else to go.

It's always bad manners to brag about your advantages to people who don't have them. (Well, in middle class culture at least. Not sure that's true for The Real Housewives of New Jersey or the Trump family.) But in a good friendship, there's also a freedom to be honest and not worry abut being judged.

[Treehugger]

Here in the US we all nearly all have privilege compared to the bulk of the world population. Obviously, some have more than others.

Yes, all you need is a salary of >$34,000 to be in the top 1% world-wide. At least this was the case in 2012. Of course, the cost of living is higher in the US than elsewhere, so this complicates the picture somewhat. (When we were in India, I remember standing on a pretty long line to pay admission for a park. The admission was the equivalent of 7 cents.)

Regarding your friend, was she saying that she does not have privilege? Doubtless you have advantages that others don't have. Her comment seems to suggest that you are not entitled to enjoy your position.

Maybe it makes a difference how you got your privilege. Trust fund kids are annoying when they seem oblivious to their position of advantage because they were just handed it. It feels like a "let them eat cake" attitude.

If I had asked, I am sure she would have said that she is privileged, but is mindful of it in a way that I am supposedly not. But I really don't know. I am guessing.

Some of my $$$ I worked for and some I have through my husband. I will also get an inheritance. But so will she. In fact, I am thinking hers will be larger than mine. She pretty clearly has more $$$ growing up than I did and has just won a 5 year legal battle over her inheritance. I'm thinking you don't engage in a protracted legal battle over inheritance unless it is sizable. Anyway ... compared to the rest of the world, we are both absurdly privileged.

But it doesn't sound like you were being unsympathetic to people who are less fortunate or to her. And although your advantages allowed you to enjoy the opportunities provided by the lockdown, it was also your own enterprise and resourcefulness that helped you take advantage of them. It seems that she didn't want to acknowledge that.

I didn't include the entire conversation in the OP, but yes, that is what she went on to say. She said that although I am having a terrific time, families with children are really stressed out right now. (Note: She does not have children either.) I said something like: "Yes, I think it is really horrible what they are going through right now." And discussed how bad the situation was some of our mutual friends. Then she said: "You make it sound like it is their fault that they have children." And I'm thinking what on earth? How are you getting that out of what I am saying? Can't we just have a normal, relaxed, at least semi-fun conversation.
[/quote]

But it seems a big generalization to go from what she said to saying that it is a national trend.

Well, it wasn't just one experience. Here's another one (it just so happens that it is also related to Spanish):

Back in the first week in March (right before COVID became a huge issue in the US), my husband and I took a birding trip to Oaxaca province, Mexico. We hired a private guide, but for complicated reasons, wound up sharing the guide with a group of three other birders for part of the trip (a couple and a friend of this couple who were all in their late twenties/early thirties, people we didn't know before the trip).

The very first evening we were all together, we were having dinner at an upscale restaurant in Huatulco. As usual, I asked our guide to order dinner for me. At that point, I knew a little Spanish, but not enough to feel comfortable ordering in a restaurant given that I have chronic pancreatitis and if I have even a little added fat or alcohol in my meal, I could get extremely sick. So, it's not just a matter of maybe getting stuck with some unfamiliar food I might not happen to like. (I had even told one member of this three person group about the pancreatitis ahead of time — we were trying to decide if we would all be compatible via email before the trip— but I frankly didn't care if they remembered I had the issue or not.)

In any case, no sooner do I have the guide place my order for me than one of the women in that group tells me, in front of the group, that she is dismayed that someone of my age and education level can't even order a restaurant meal without having to use a guide. And then preceded to inform me that it was only polite and non-ethnocentric to learn the language of the country one is traveling in. I told her about my dietary requirements and how serious they were, but conceded that I really didn't know that much Spanish. (I knew some words and basic grammatical rules, but really couldn't communicate; this woman on the other hand could speak Spanish really very well). However, I did say that I am fluent in French, can speak German and can read in Italian, even if I can't speak Spanish. She persisted and asked, well why hadn't I also learned Spanish? I explained that I had studied those particular languages because they were opera languages and Spanish wasn't.

At this, point, the other women more or less lost it and said/yelled: "I can't BELIEVE you just SAID THAT!" I was confused, so she said, "What did I say that was so horrible?" She said: You just said that French, German and Italian were "UPPPER" languages and Spanish wasn't. I said: "I said they were o-pe-ra languages and Spanish wasn't. I studied to be an opera singer and that is why I learned those languages."

Anyway, she didn't actually use the word "privilege," but she certainly came to the dinner all ready to judge me from an identitarian political perspective ("You horrible, ethnocentric person you.")

It seems to me that there are just a lot of judgmental people out there (as there always have been) and "privilege" and/or "ethnocentrism" has become the new socially acceptable way to be judgmental, superior, and virtuous all at the same time!

I can come up with more examples too. But not many more, thankfully.

[Wahoo Redux]

Since we don't know this person and weren't in on the conversation it is impossible to say for sure how or what "privilege" is supposed to mean in this circumstance or the tone in which it was uttered.

I will say that I have been very well aware of how privileged my wife and I are in these circumstances.  Certainly we would be making a great deal more money had we each pursued our first careers, but we have had a very comfortable but disappointing summer (our travel plans quashed and my resulting deep homesickness) and I am aware that our "woes" are very first-world-problem-y.

That said, we both worked very hard to get to where we are, including hitting the eject button on our last university employer, which is now seeing some economic warning signs, to land in our current situation which is stable even during the pandemic.  And I think so often this perspective is lost.  Sure, both my wife and I are products of stable middle-class upbringings with access to education etc.  And then we made basically good decisions on top of this.  Am I supposed to feel bad about what we've done even as I feel empathy for those folks who cannot pay their rent?  Should TH be ashamed of learning Spanish because hu is lucky enough to not be starving?

It is a mark of our zeitgeist held over, I believe, from the turbulent '70s that we feel we must remind people constantly of their luck in an aggressive and confrontational manner.

We live in confrontational times in which we belittle anyone, no matter why or how, with cultural ideology.  Polly, you just typically enacted this very thing.

[Cheerful]

After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation.

That said, the line that was crossed was talking about "really enjoying the situation." Because of "the situation" people are dying , losing their jobs, health, livelihoods, sanity.

It's okay that it's working out okay for you, still, "really enjoying the situation" feels rather tone-deaf.

+1 ciao_yall.

"Really enjoying" a horrific pandemic?  Insensitive remark, to put it mildly.  Hopefully, just a poor choice of words.

[Treehugger]

After the appropriate commiseration, I confessed that I was still really enjoying the situation.

That said, the line that was crossed was talking about "really enjoying the situation." Because of "the situation" people are dying , losing their jobs, health, livelihoods, sanity.

It's okay that it's working out okay for you, still, "really enjoying the situation" feels rather tone-deaf.

+1 ciao_yall.

"Really enjoying" a horrific pandemic?  Insensitive remark, to put it mildly.  Hopefully, just a poor choice of words.

Of course I am not enjoying the fact that a lot of people are suffering and dying and even more are suffering emotional and financial insecurity because of it. However, this is an unique time and there are indeed aspects of it that are very enjoyable for some people.

I agree that it would be absolutely tone-deaf to come out with ("I'm loving the lockdown") in a public situation or at a large private gathering where you didn't know the life circumstances of everyone there. But it was just the two of us and I know my friend really pretty well. The great thing about privacy is that you can say things that might be interpreted as politically incorrect and get away with it (although in this situation, I didn't even think I was crossing a line).

[polly_mer]

Why are you friends with someone who doesn't share your values and world view?

Or, perhaps, you're not really friends, but just people who have known each other a long time?

There are certainly people in life, work, and on these fora whom I've known a long time (decades in some cases), but we're definitely not friends because we don't share a worldview.  We have met for dinner etc. when such was a thing and I don't wish harm on anyone, but we're definitely not friends.

Just because something is a small gathering doesn't mean you're safe assuming you can say anything when the worldviews of everyone present aren't compatible.  This is how advice columnists stay in business as outraged people write, 'it was just the two of us and that person said X!  Can you believe people are just wandering around thinking they can say X when everyone knows you can't?'