So adjuncts have zero right?

[mahagonny]

If the people who run a place are telling you not to work there change is needed.

[Kron3007]

Super Dinky closed and now no one has a job there.  A union for better wages and conditions doesn't matter at all when the institution flat out closes. Many more institutions are at the brink of closing departments, if not the whole institution, than were at that point last year and last year was not good in many regions.  That's a very inconvenient truth that seems to be ignored by many faculty.

Sorry, but you had problems. How would you tell people to study there when you're so busy telling people not to work there?

If meeting the demands of adjuncts who unionize causes a college to go under, it is probably for the best anyway. 

[apl68]

There's a difference between letting people do what they have a right to do and make their own legitimate choices and meddling and harassing union organization efforts, which we all know Polly has done. But by all means, weigh in in favor of illegal retaliation against union efforts if that's your inclination. Let's get acquainted!

You seem to view this as basically a binary choice; people are either supporters of unions, or bent on the destruction of unions. There are a lot of people who probably don't fit either category.

By analogy, lots of people are concerned about weeds in their lawns. Some people want to use Roundup and obliterate anything that wasn't planted. Other people "naturalize" their yards and let indigenous plants take over. Most people are probably somewhere in the middle; they still want a lawn, but they want to be very selective about where and when to use any chemicals to avoid harm to animals, humans, or the environment.

I see unions as kind of the labour equivalent of Roundup;  when they are powerful they have a pretty drastic effect on all kinds of things. I've never done anything to oppose them, (other than simply not joining), but I think they often make some things worse while trying to make other things better.

Unions are a form of human power structure.  As such, they are prone to being corrupted, however useful they may be.  As are the businesses, industries, and agencies that employ the people who make up unions.  I tend to look at them all as something of a necessary evil.  Personally I'm just as glad that I've never yet worked anywhere where unions were an issue.

Ideally a union will have two priorities--seeing to it that its members get fair treatment and consideration from their employers, and seeing to it that the members themselves meet professional standards high enough to justify their continuing employment.  Unions have gotten a bad name in some quarters in large part because some of them (Police unions in certain cities come to mind) have lost sight of that important second part of their mission--holding their own members accountable.

The masons' union that my father belonged to early in his career was an example of a union that got it right.  On his first union job several other bricklayers were fired after egregiously botching some work and talking back to the foreman about it.  They complained to the union about their firing.  The union agent from Little Rock came out, saw what a mess they'd made of their work (Bad masonry work is hard to sweep under the rug), and ruled that the terminations were justified.

The same guys, jealous at how a junior-but-competent worker like Dad got to keep his job, filed another complaint alleging that he was a "runaway apprentice" who hadn't come up through the correct channels.  Again, the union agent investigated, saw the incompetent senior workers' trick for what it was, and dismissed that complaint as well. 

If more unions were run that way, unions in general would have a far better reputation.

[apl68]

Super Dinky closed and now no one has a job there.  A union for better wages and conditions doesn't matter at all when the institution flat out closes. Many more institutions are at the brink of closing departments, if not the whole institution, than were at that point last year and last year was not good in many regions.  That's a very inconvenient truth that seems to be ignored by many faculty.

Super Dinky has closed?  I don't recall seeing anything about that before.  Last I knew they were still hanging in there, but looking like they wouldn't be able to for much longer.

[mahagonny]

There's a difference between letting people do what they have a right to do and make their own legitimate choices and meddling and harassing union organization efforts, which we all know Polly has done. But by all means, weigh in in favor of illegal retaliation against union efforts if that's your inclination. Let's get acquainted!

You seem to view this as basically a binary choice; people are either supporters of unions, or bent on the destruction of unions. There are a lot of people who probably don't fit either category.

By analogy, lots of people are concerned about weeds in their lawns. Some people want to use Roundup and obliterate anything that wasn't planted. Other people "naturalize" their yards and let indigenous plants take over. Most people are probably somewhere in the middle; they still want a lawn, but they want to be very selective about where and when to use any chemicals to avoid harm to animals, humans, or the environment.

I see unions as kind of the labour equivalent of Roundup;  when they are powerful they have a pretty drastic effect on all kinds of things. I've never done anything to oppose them, (other than simply not joining), but I think they often make some things worse while trying to make other things better.

Unions are a form of human power structure.  As such, they are prone to being corrupted, however useful they may be.  As are the businesses, industries, and agencies that employ the people who make up unions.  I tend to look at them all as something of a necessary evil.  Personally I'm just as glad that I've never yet worked anywhere where unions were an issue.

Ideally a union will have two priorities--seeing to it that its members get fair treatment and consideration from their employers, and seeing to it that the members themselves meet professional standards high enough to justify their continuing employment.  Unions have gotten a bad name in some quarters in large part because some of them (Police unions in certain cities come to mind) have lost sight of that important second part of their mission--holding their own members accountable.

The masons' union that my father belonged to early in his career was an example of a union that got it right.  On his first union job several other bricklayers were fired after egregiously botching some work and talking back to the foreman about it.  They complained to the union about their firing.  The union agent from Little Rock came out, saw what a mess they'd made of their work (Bad masonry work is hard to sweep under the rug), and ruled that the terminations were justified.

The same guys, jealous at how a junior-but-competent worker like Dad got to keep his job, filed another complaint alleging that he was a "runaway apprentice" who hadn't come up through the correct channels.  Again, the union agent investigated, saw the incompetent senior workers' trick for what it was, and dismissed that complaint as well. 

If more unions were run that way, unions in general would have a far better reputation.

I wouldn't quarrel with any of this, but I find it marginally relevant. I am at a loss to understand the prospect of an adjunct union being feared because of what police unions and others have done. The money and power they have to work with is generally pitifully small.  Corruption? Like, the wrong person getting to teach gigantic section of Intro to Writing for $2800 because of a seniority clause? I mean, a little perspective please. They ought to feel lucky anyone would do it. "Part-time' is itself an anti-labor ruse.

[Ruralguy]

It  asked Polly publicly about Super Dinky about 6 months ago, and she said the powers that be were going to likely announce its closure after graduation of the then current seniors.

[polly_mer]

Super Dinky closed and now no one has a job there.  A union for better wages and conditions doesn't matter at all when the institution flat out closes. Many more institutions are at the brink of closing departments, if not the whole institution, than were at that point last year and last year was not good in many regions.  That's a very inconvenient truth that seems to be ignored by many faculty.

Super Dinky has closed?  I don't recall seeing anything about that before.  Last I knew they were still hanging in there, but looking like they wouldn't be able to for much longer.

I was hardly going to make a big public announcement during a time when it was easy to figure out where Super Dinky was and by extension who I am.  Thus, I fudged on timing and kept them on life support for discussion purposes here well after they died.

However, they're really dead and it wasn't adjuncts that killed them.  Super Dinky never had enough adjuncts to matter because Super Dinky did hire full-time as soon as they could get a 4/4 reasonable load together.  In a given term, Super Dinky tended to average about five professional fellows and another maybe as many as five adjuncts for extra sections or as fill ins.

A faculty union was not going to fix the main problem of advertising a liberal arts education to students who didn't care and being unable to pivot to the majors that students wanted in a cost-effective manner.

[mahagonny]

I was hardly going to make a big public announcement during a time when it was easy to figure out where Super Dinky was and by extension who I am.  Thus, I fudged on timing and kept them on life support for discussion purposes here well after they died.

However, they're really dead and it wasn't adjuncts that killed them.  Super Dinky never had enough adjuncts to matter because Super Dinky did hire full-time as soon as they could get a 4/4 reasonable load together.  In a given term, Super Dinky tended to average about five professional fellows and another maybe as many as five adjuncts for extra sections or as fill ins.

...And, since you forgot to inform us, all had plenty of income from another full time job or a retirement pension.

[Ruralguy]

There just aren't enough 18 years olds or non trads thirsting for the type of knowledge SD was willing to give.
My school is probably on the bubble. We have a lot of great things going on, but high enrollments ain't one of them.
At this rate, 10 years from now Tiny SLAC  will be gone, and maybe sooner.

We've been through this a billion times. Liberal arts will always be alive at Columbia, Chicago, etc. but it's a dead duck 
at small schools, and as Polly pointed out, most can't offer but a tiny portion of the curricula these students really want.  Maybe it will be revived again in 100 years, but short and medium term economics of these schools and many bigger ones don't look good if you know where and how to look.

[fourhats]

The college I attended as an undergraduate has closed. However, I would not paint SLACS, or the liberal arts, are dead or will soon be. I have taught at a few of them, and always have to remind people of a few things.

First, that the liberal arts include the sciences, and that there are plenty of science majors at them. What they generally don't include are professional studies (like business), but that isn't true of all of them. Some people persist in believing that they are only about the humanities.

Secondly, that there are a number of well-heeled SLACS, with good endowments. These are generally elite colleges (like Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc.) These aren't going away. They have strong development offices, loyal alumni, and good financial aid. Not all SLACs are equal.

Thirdly, although the numbers are going down, there are also a lot of students who prefer a smaller college experience. My mother used to tell me that I preferred to be a big fish in a small pond, and she was right. I did not thrive at a large place, and have taught (and nurtured) plenty of students who felt the same way. Their numbers are fewer perhaps now, but surely not all of them are doomed.

[apl68]

Super Dinky closed and now no one has a job there.  A union for better wages and conditions doesn't matter at all when the institution flat out closes. Many more institutions are at the brink of closing departments, if not the whole institution, than were at that point last year and last year was not good in many regions.  That's a very inconvenient truth that seems to be ignored by many faculty.

Super Dinky has closed?  I don't recall seeing anything about that before.  Last I knew they were still hanging in there, but looking like they wouldn't be able to for much longer.

I was hardly going to make a big public announcement during a time when it was easy to figure out where Super Dinky was and by extension who I am.  Thus, I fudged on timing and kept them on life support for discussion purposes here well after they died.

However, they're really dead and it wasn't adjuncts that killed them.  Super Dinky never had enough adjuncts to matter because Super Dinky did hire full-time as soon as they could get a 4/4 reasonable load together.  In a given term, Super Dinky tended to average about five professional fellows and another maybe as many as five adjuncts for extra sections or as fill ins.

A faculty union was not going to fix the main problem of advertising a liberal arts education to students who didn't care and being unable to pivot to the majors that students wanted in a cost-effective manner.

Hope the students left in the lurch by their closing were able to manage fairly smooth transitions to new schools.  Also wish their faculty well.  Although between the terrible job market and the way some of them seem to have become fossilized where they were, it's hard to see them landing on their feet in academia.  Those who aren't old enough to retire are probably doing to be looking at trying to start second careers in a depressed economy.

[apl68]

The college I attended as an undergraduate has closed. However, I would not paint SLACS, or the liberal arts, are dead or will soon be. I have taught at a few of them, and always have to remind people of a few things.

First, that the liberal arts include the sciences, and that there are plenty of science majors at them. What they generally don't include are professional studies (like business), but that isn't true of all of them. Some people persist in believing that they are only about the humanities.

Secondly, that there are a number of well-heeled SLACS, with good endowments. These are generally elite colleges (like Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc.) These aren't going away. They have strong development offices, loyal alumni, and good financial aid. Not all SLACs are equal.

Thirdly, although the numbers are going down, there are also a lot of students who prefer a smaller college experience. My mother used to tell me that I preferred to be a big fish in a small pond, and she was right. I did not thrive at a large place, and have taught (and nurtured) plenty of students who felt the same way. Their numbers are fewer perhaps now, but surely not all of them are doomed.

There's undoubtedly going to be a major shake-out of small colleges in the years to come, but I suspect that there will remain a place for small, non-elite schools.  Schools that may have fewer liberal arts majors than they did, but which retain at least some viable liberal arts programs. 

I am hoping very much that Alma Mater will be among them.  It's a level above Super Dinky in size, is in a region where colleges aren't that thick upon the ground, and its continuing commitment to its religious mission gives it "brand identity."  Its leadership seems to remain pretty intelligent, and to practice good integrity.  I've mentioned on another thread the possibility that it may be attracting students from Liberty who have been turned off by the scandals and failures to live up to its state mission there.

[polly_mer]

I was hardly going to make a big public announcement during a time when it was easy to figure out where Super Dinky was and by extension who I am.  Thus, I fudged on timing and kept them on life support for discussion purposes here well after they died.

However, they're really dead and it wasn't adjuncts that killed them.  Super Dinky never had enough adjuncts to matter because Super Dinky did hire full-time as soon as they could get a 4/4 reasonable load together.  In a given term, Super Dinky tended to average about five professional fellows and another maybe as many as five adjuncts for extra sections or as fill ins.

...And, since you forgot to inform us, all had plenty of income from another full time job or a retirement pension.

I feel a lot more sorry for the TT faculty who probably will never get another full-time academic job in their seriously overcrowded fields than the handful of people who were truly one-term temp hires.

Super Dinky did not have armies of adjuncts doing anything.  Super Dinky did have professional fellows who were gainfully employed elsewhere using their degrees or on pension as retired teachers who taught specific courses as fully part-time faculty with faculty standing and duties beyond teaching courses.  I knew all of them because they were part of the approximately 30 total faculty members.

The handful of temps really were temps hired for one term for a specific need.  They were not brought back term after term while being kept separate.  When the same need arose two plus years later for another section, people who had done well were asked again, but that was more a convenience because there just aren't that many qualified chemistry or math professors in a truly rural region.

We almost never had humanities adjuncts, even for freshman comp, because we had so few humanities majors that the tenured full English professors spent most of their load on freshman comp.  The tutoring center faculty and library faculty often took a section each to free up other professors for tasks.  We did hire the occasional VAP for a sabbatical, maternity leave, or for a gap year while we did a TT search.

In that sense, Super Dinky was good for students because nearly every course was taught by someone who was truly part of the learning community.  Almost no part-time faculty were paid only the list price of $1800/course.  However, almost the only people who did accept that sum were one-term humanities and social science folks.  Everyone who had good income prospects, even if only from a pension, negotiated for substantially more money and got it because those slots were hard to fill.

[polly_mer]

Super Dinky closed and now no one has a job there.  A union for better wages and conditions doesn't matter at all when the institution flat out closes. Many more institutions are at the brink of closing departments, if not the whole institution, than were at that point last year and last year was not good in many regions.  That's a very inconvenient truth that seems to be ignored by many faculty.

Super Dinky has closed?  I don't recall seeing anything about that before.  Last I knew they were still hanging in there, but looking like they wouldn't be able to for much longer.

I was hardly going to make a big public announcement during a time when it was easy to figure out where Super Dinky was and by extension who I am.  Thus, I fudged on timing and kept them on life support for discussion purposes here well after they died.

However, they're really dead and it wasn't adjuncts that killed them.  Super Dinky never had enough adjuncts to matter because Super Dinky did hire full-time as soon as they could get a 4/4 reasonable load together.  In a given term, Super Dinky tended to average about five professional fellows and another maybe as many as five adjuncts for extra sections or as fill ins.

A faculty union was not going to fix the main problem of advertising a liberal arts education to students who didn't care and being unable to pivot to the majors that students wanted in a cost-effective manner.

Hope the students left in the lurch by their closing were able to manage fairly smooth transitions to new schools.  Also wish their faculty well.  Although between the terrible job market and the way some of them seem to have become fossilized where they were, it's hard to see them landing on their feet in academia.  Those who aren't old enough to retire are probably doing to be looking at trying to start second careers in a depressed economy.

Super Dinky is in a region with many other small colleges, most of whom can't make it without the others closing and redistributing the students.  By SD closing gracefully instead of abruptly, arrangements were made with several other colleges for a smooth transition for students in most majors. 

The exceptions were the niche majors that weren't enough to save Super Dinky because they were niche and had far too little regional demand.  The transitions web pages were regularly updated with more places who put in place special transition paths for Super Dinky's students.  I do feel for the students who were only at Super Dinky because their previous institution closed and SD had a transition path for them.

I also feel for the relative newcomer faculty who had the rug pulled out from under them as well as the established faculty in crowded fields who had spent years on a job search that didn't pay off before closure.  One reason I'm so vocal about the need to know one's institution's finances and then be on the job market is how many places will be closing departments, if not the whole institution, and that was before Covid.

While it's true that the liberal arts include physical sciences like chemistry and physics as well as mathematics, it's also true that very few BS degrees in the US go to people in those fields.  A prospective student who has a passion for chemistry or physics is very likely someone who has good options and will be picking an excellent, name-brand SLAC with solid programs that include undergrad research experiences instead of a no-name, no-frills, not-even-regionally-recognized college that costs more out of pocket for a lesser experience.

The liberal arts will survive in the US.  Of the thousand Super Dinky-like colleges identified in 2016 as being likely to close just on the demographics for the 2020s, more of them will fail quicker in the Covid times.  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/education/dozens-colleges-closed-abruptly-recent-years-efforts-protect-students-have-n1235617 is just one recent article.

[mahagonny]

Super Dinky closed and now no one has a job there.  A union for better wages and conditions doesn't matter at all when the institution flat out closes. Many more institutions are at the brink of closing departments, if not the whole institution, than were at that point last year and last year was not good in many regions.  That's a very inconvenient truth that seems to be ignored by many faculty.

Sorry, but you had problems. How would you tell people to study there when you're so busy telling people not to work there?

If meeting the demands of adjuncts who unionize causes a college to go under, it is probably for the best anyway.

Again, no reason to quarrel with this, but to add, you're posting this opinion, and I'm reading it as a confirmed outsider, a temporary hire. A person whose contract says I may be considered self-employed or a private contractor, but in no way am I to be considered an employee of [state that owns the university system].
Suppose I told a private contractor 'if I pay you what you require to put a new roof on my house, I may not have enough left over the pay the mortgage.' And he'd say 'what has that got to do with me?'
So what's my reaction? I'd say 'none.' Of course our union has always shown that what they ask for can be afforded.

I feel a lot more sorry for the TT faculty who probably will never get another full-time academic job in their seriously overcrowded fields than the handful of people who were truly one-term temp hires.

Super Dinky did not have armies of adjuncts doing anything.  Super Dinky did have professional fellows who were gainfully employed elsewhere using their degrees or on pension as retired teachers who taught specific courses as fully part-time faculty with faculty standing and duties beyond teaching courses.  I knew all of them because they were part of the approximately 30 total faculty members.

The handful of temps really were temps hired for one term for a specific need.  They were not brought back term after term while being kept separate.  When the same need arose two plus years later for another section, people who had done well were asked again, but that was more a convenience because there just aren't that many qualified chemistry or math professors in a truly rural region.

We almost never had humanities adjuncts, even for freshman comp, because we had so few humanities majors that the tenured full English professors spent most of their load on freshman comp.  The tutoring center faculty and library faculty often took a section each to free up other professors for tasks.  We did hire the occasional VAP for a sabbatical, maternity leave, or for a gap year while we did a TT search.

In that sense, Super Dinky was good for students because nearly every course was taught by someone who was truly part of the learning community.  Almost no part-time faculty were paid only the list price of $1800/course.  However, almost the only people who did accept that sum were one-term humanities and social science folks.  Everyone who had good income prospects, even if only from a pension, negotiated for substantially more money and got it because those slots were hard to fill.

You tell your story and I'll tell mine.
Every administrator on the forum knows the adjuncts, a good deal about their employment and lifestyle. whereas I having worked for years as an adjunct, never meet any chairs or administrators who show any interest in what I'm doing the rest of the week, or where my money comes from. Occasionally they bitch a little because they're heard I'm also attracting student to another college, but that's about it. They don't want a relationship. the interview takes fifteen minutes and they wish it had been over with yesterday. A whole semester can easily go by with no more contact between us than a greeting while walking past.