Hypothetical Scenario: Suicidal Student. What would you do?

[Hegemony]

I think that shows the risk of instructors thinking they have the wherewithal to "counsel" students on emotional issues, even if informally. Many people will think they have the right skills to do so; some of them will be wrong. In all cases, the student needs to have professional resources and sources of support that are there specifically for that purpose, even if the instructor can cope with a crisis long enough to direct the student to professional resources.

[dr_codex]

Last year, our department lost a student to suicide. A flurry of emails over the following months kept announcing mental health seminars, counseling resources, etc... There was a lot of emphasis on asking for help if you were struggling. I had thought, if anything, people would have been more alert to protocol dealing with students in crisis (at least temporarily). I don't know if other students had been treated the same way, or if the problem is just me.

My therapist has suggested I draw up a document about the difficulties I had trying to get help, not just for my own sake, but for the sake of other students who might be hurting and running into the same obstacles. I'm not even sure who would read a document like that, or if it would make any difference at all.

I also don't know if such a document would make any difference, but some people would read it.

You were treated horribly. People should know. You should tell them. (And tell us, of course, but we cannot act in ways that might effect local change.)

All of the special sessions in the world won't do anything if people don't act when the time comes.

***

Adding one thing: Even with the best will in the world, people can f**k this stuff up. Even people who care for you, even those who love you -- maybe especially those who love you -- often do not step up in the right way, at the right time. Cries for help are often heard only as echoes.

Stay with us, SCR.

[Caracal]

I think that shows the risk of instructors thinking they have the wherewithal to "counsel" students on emotional issues, even if informally. Many people will think they have the right skills to do so; some of them will be wrong. In all cases, the student needs to have professional resources and sources of support that are there specifically for that purpose, even if the instructor can cope with a crisis long enough to direct the student to professional resources.

It often helps me when I'm thinking of mental health issues to find the physical equivalent. If a student came and talked to me about the problems they were having with class because of their back issues, it would be completely appropriate to express sympathy, ("Ugh, that sounds terrible") , empathize, ("I've never had anything nearly that bad, but I threw out my back two years ago, and even with something minor like that , it it is tough to do the simplest things, so don't feel like you're making too big a deal of this") and make concrete suggestions if appropriate for how to manage things in class. (Would you like to try using the instructor chair in the room since I stand up all class anyway, the last time I sat in one of the student chairs while I was watching some group presentations I couldn't believe how terrible they felt)

It would not be appropriate for me to advocate for particular treatments (you should really just go to my chiropractor, the guy's a miracle worker!" If the student has a major spasm and fell on the ground in the middle of class, you call emergency medical help, you don't jump in and do some back adjustments.

[smallcleanrat]

Thanks, Bonnie. I do have a crisis plan, but the therapist who helped me draft it wasn't thrilled about the fact that it did not include any of the people in my personal, non-treatment life. As dr_codex mentioned, even the people closest to me have shown I cannot trust them for support.

I have used crisis lines before and they have certainly helped, but it's deeply unsettling that I can only count on strangers to take me seriously. It leads back to the thought that there's something about me that makes people indifferent to whether I'm alive or dead.

This professor had been quite lenient about extending deadlines for students dealing with stress- or illness-related issues, in addition to sending encouraging/sympathetic emails and even offering to make referrals to some. He seemed concerned that Other TA not become too stressed or overworked, frequently asking her how things were going. I felt like what I got from him was a scolding.

I didn't hear from this professor again until about a month later. And all he did was ask for a favor regarding an administrative issue. He didn't seem interested in whether or not I was ok.

When I talk to people about feeling painfully alone during times I desperately need support, the most common response is, "Well, you have to remember there's a pandemic. People are stressed. People are busy. There's probably no ill intent, so don't take it personally."

It's rare to hear, "That shouldn't have happened."

Caracal, I think your analogy makes a lot of sense.

If a student had an asthma attack or a seizure, and the professor with them simply walked away saying "Hope that works out for you." would people still expect the student to easily accept "People are busy" as a good reason?

But is it possible I'm the problem (or part of it)? Is there something a student could do that would make you wish they would die? Or at least make you feel indifferent?

[Morden]

Hi Smallcleanrat, you said

But is it possible I'm the problem (or part of it)? Is there something a student could do that would make you wish they would die? Or at least make you feel indifferent?

Your instructor made a mistake; you can't control or change how he responded. But how he responded doesn't have anything to do with your worth. Please just try to keep going with your counsellor.

[smallcleanrat]

This kind of thing hasn't been limited to one instructor. So, could it be a similar situation to that saying: "If one day you meet a jerk, then you met a jerk. If one day you meet ten jerks, then YOU'RE the jerk?"

[Morden]

Smallcleanrat, You have been hurt deeply by a number of people who should have, and could have, done things differently. But you're working on healing--even though it's really hard.

[Caracal]

This kind of thing hasn't been limited to one instructor. So, could it be a similar situation to that saying: "If one day you meet a jerk, then you met a jerk. If one day you meet ten jerks, then YOU'RE the jerk?"

I obviously can't judge any of this from here, but it is worth keeping in mind that you might be viewing your interactions with others through a distorted lens. The faculty member's response was terrible. Certainly, he's not someone you should rely on. However, it may be that other people in your life aren't fully aware of your struggles, or they might not feel like there is really anything they can do to help.

[smallcleanrat]

This kind of thing hasn't been limited to one instructor. So, could it be a similar situation to that saying: "If one day you meet a jerk, then you met a jerk. If one day you meet ten jerks, then YOU'RE the jerk?"

I obviously can't judge any of this from here, but it is worth keeping in mind that you might be viewing your interactions with others through a distorted lens. The faculty member's response was terrible. Certainly, he's not someone you should rely on. However, it may be that other people in your life aren't fully aware of your struggles, or they might not feel like there is really anything they can do to help.

That's a reasonable caveat, but I consciously made efforts to be clear so nobody has to guess. Example: my PI had asked whether there was anything he could do in the lab that would help. I told him it would help to move a couple of tools and chemicals out of my sight-line (still accessible to any lab member, just out of sight) because seeing those items can trigger the suicidal urges or exacerbate them. I emphasized this was a safety issue (in some detail). We recently had a conversation in which he told me he had indeed understand I was asking for this to reduce the chances I would hurt myself. He had told me my request was no problem. It was six weeks (and two follow-up reminders) before it actually happened. Every time I came to the lab and saw the stuff was still there it was...distressing.

As for the other people, I think I might post about that in the mental health thread. But I'm similarly as confident as I can be that they also understood what I was telling them; it just wasn't important enough to keep in mind or act on.

[research_prof]

This has happened to me once in a different setting (I got concerned due to a student email). I let right away academic affairs know and I got myself out of the loop. I let them handle the whole thing in any way they saw fit. The student was fine, he said he did not express himself properly in the email.

[the_geneticist]

Small_clean_rat, that instructor was awful to you.  Please talk with your therapist since it's clearly still deeply painful for you.

For your original question, I have personally dropped what I was doing to walk a student to the counseling center and demanded that they get seen RIGHT NOW.  None of this "oh, we'll see if we can get them in later this week". 

It's like Caracal said, we should respond to a student with a mental health crisis similarly to a physical health crisis: acknowledge they are in a crisis and get them help.  No one would tell a student that broke a leg in class that "other folks are way more hurt than you, walk it off, you'll feel better later".

Liking a student or not liking a student is not part of the decision.

[smallcleanrat]

Small_clean_rat, that instructor was awful to you.  Please talk with your therapist since it's clearly still deeply painful for you.

....

I have talked about this with my therapist. Her initial take was similar to Caracal's, that things weren't as clear to others as they seemed to me. Perhaps other people just didn't pick up on how serious the problem was or they didn't know how to help.

But after I described how things like this had happened with *many* people and told her about situations like the one with my PI I described above (in which I determinedly made things as clear as I could), she was a bit baffled. Her advice was to try to have a conversation with people I thought would be receptive and to write a document for the sake of advising the university what the experience of trying to get help had been like from a student's perspective.

I recently had a talk about this with my PI (as non-confrontational as I could make it). He said he was sorry about it, he just "didn't think about how that might come across from your perspective." It came across as though my safety was not an issue of any urgency. It's still difficult for me to understand. Would it have been the same if I had asked for something to be moved away from my work area because of an allergy?

My partner has said things like "I've got enough on my mind with work and this pandemic. I can't be worrying about you too." or "You're smart enough to find a way to kill yourself if you were determined enough. Nothing I could do would stop you. So I've decided not to worry about [looking for warning signs/red flags/cries for help]." He was initially part of my crisis plan, but after he said these things (and after he told me he couldn't even remember what the plan was or what his role in it was supposed to be) I took him out. It felt a lot like being lost at sea, swimming to the point of exhaustion, and seeing a hand reaching out to help only to be yanked away at the last second.

So I've been seriously reconsidering whether my expectations were off-kilter. I know people are stressed and busy, and I wouldn't otherwise expect to be high on anyone's priority list (except for family and partner). But I thought being in crisis would get me at least a temporary priority spot in someone's headspace, that pleas for help would not be ignored. It took a lot for me to get to that mindset, to counteract the belief that my life wasn't worth anything. These experiences seemed to be telling me that I was right the first time.

[mamselle]

Hearing/reading all of this, I just want for you to find the way to wipe away, or erase, or white-noise out all those messages--internal or otherwise--telling you you are unworthy.

Those voices are lying to you. Don't listen to them or let them rent space in your head.

When people do stupid, awful, mean, uncaring things to you, or say them, do NOT let those implications resonate with any messages of low self-worth.

You are a worthy, worthwhile, created person of value. Anything that says or implies anything to the contrary to you is not worthy of your notice.

You are doing all you can to live out a good, valuable life. Keep at it and know you are supported, whatever others' voices or actions might suggest.

Screen them out the way you'd filter unwanted chemicals out of an infusion. Don't let them stay in the mix. Be free of them, don't let them get your attention or try to hold it.

You are wanted.

M.

[Caracal]

Small_clean_rat, that instructor was awful to you.  Please talk with your therapist since it's clearly still deeply painful for you.

....

I have talked about this with my therapist. Her initial take was similar to Caracal's, that things weren't as clear to others as they seemed to me. Perhaps other people just didn't pick up on how serious the problem was or they didn't know how to help.

But after I described how things like this had happened with *many* people and told her about situations like the one with my PI I described above (in which I determinedly made things as clear as I could), she was a bit baffled. Her advice was to try to have a conversation with people I thought would be receptive and to write a document for the sake of advising the university what the experience of trying to get help had been like from a student's perspective.

I recently had a talk about this with my PI (as non-confrontational as I could make it). He said he was sorry about it, he just "didn't think about how that might come across from your perspective." It came across as though my safety was not an issue of any urgency. It's still difficult for me to understand. Would it have been the same if I had asked for something to be moved away from my work area because of an allergy?

My partner has said things like "I've got enough on my mind with work and this pandemic. I can't be worrying about you too." or "You're smart enough to find a way to kill yourself if you were determined enough. Nothing I could do would stop you. So I've decided not to worry about [looking for warning signs/red flags/cries for help]." He was initially part of my crisis plan, but after he said these things (and after he told me he couldn't even remember what the plan was or what his role in it was supposed to be) I took him out. It felt a lot like being lost at sea, swimming to the point of exhaustion, and seeing a hand reaching out to help only to be yanked away at the last second.

I have to say, that it is hard for me to understand continuing a serious relationship if you've determined that you couldn't rely on the person during a life threatening emergency. You can't expect a partner to act as your therapist, but you can expect them to pay enough attention that they would notice if you were spiraling into severe depression.

Is this in character for your partner? Does that comment generally reflect the way he treats you? It sounds like it might be since you went so far as to decide that you really couldn't rely on him even in a period of extreme crisis. Did you ever revisit the subject with him, or tell him it really shook you? I could imagine a version of this where he just got frustrated, but then I'd expect it to lead to a conversation.

[Larimar]

Hearing/reading all of this, I just want for you to find the way to wipe away, or erase, or white-noise out all those messages--internal or otherwise--telling you you are unworthy.

Those voices are lying to you. Don't listen to them or let them rent space in your head.

When people do stupid, awful, mean, uncaring things to you, or say them, do NOT let those implications resonate with any messages of low self-worth.

You are a worthy, worthwhile, created person of value. Anything that says or implies anything to the contrary to you is not worthy of your notice.

You are doing all you can to live out a good, valuable life. Keep at it and know you are supported, whatever others' voices or actions might suggest.

Screen them out the way you'd filter unwanted chemicals out of an infusion. Don't let them stay in the mix. Be free of them, don't let them get your attention or try to hold it.

You are wanted.

M.

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