The Relationship Thread

[smallcleanrat]

So keep the cat and ditch the boyfriend if the cat relationship is the positive one for you.

Keeping everything as it is and hoping it will get better may be easier in the moment, but it won't fix anything.  Letting things continue just makes it harder later to take action.

It's your life, but it does get old to observe someone ask for advice, be given nearly unanimous advice from people who seldom agree, and then fail to do anything related to that advice.

At one point, the issue was how hard someone should be trying.  Now might be a time to ask that question with a therapist for personalized feedback.

So how quick do you think I need to be about it? Today? Tomorrow?

Isn't making a plan of action a form of doing something related to the advice?

What kind of advice do you need on making a plan from people who have left long-term relationships?

If things are going well with the therapist on making the plan, then why are you asking us anything?

I write because I see no evidence of planning or even evaluating in your posts.

* I see a lot of writing on details that don't matter with the important issues showing up as almost an afterthought.
* I see some very big red, waving flags that are acknowledged and then discarded in favor of details that don't matter (you are more important than a cat and yet you seem much more worried about the cat possibly not finding another home and then possibly being euthanized than your physical and mental situation).
* The exact timeline is much less important than seeing either a plan or a concrete plan to get the evaluation of the relationship done and then a plan to act on that evaluation.

Talking feels like doing something, but it isn't.  Don't get trapped into another couple years of trying to figure out how bad is bad enough to leave or waiting for everything else to be perfect so you can leave a bad relationship.  That's how people end up writing letters to advice columnists that are titled "I Dumped My Ex-Boyfriend Four Years Ago. He's Still Living With Me.  I want him gone, but I don't have the heart to throw him out on the streets."

Eh...maybe I'm not expressing myself in writing very well. I tried to explain above that in treatment:

1) no therapist has even hinted that any of this behavior is a red flag for anything; they have been focusing on my ability to function when caring for myself and at school/work; when I bring up relationship stuff the advice has focused on preventing emotions from leading to impulsive actions and "get the basics in place first"

2) I *just* started the relationship group; I've hardly got any feedback there yet, and what I have gotten is tentative and mixed; there is more group input here and not just input from the therapist, so I might get more practical advice from people who have been there; I don't know; just started

3) I initially was quite upset about some of the things I describe, but since my psychiatrist and the group therapists gave me no indication it was a big deal (psychiatrist keeps trying point out ways boyfriend is "trying" as evidence the relationship can recover; therapists keep trying to warn me against making emotional judgments), I posted on the fora in hopes I might get a sense of "what am I missing?" that I thought these things might be dealbreakers, but trained professionals in behavioral health want to discuss improving communication and considering the positives as well as the negatives (I have gotten absolutely no advice on how to prepare to break up with someone)

in my current state, I don't trust my instincts or feelings to guide me; not very long ago they were telling me to to kill myself

4) the reason I was posting so much about the cat is that you seemed so certain it was best for me to get rid of him when I never once doubted my relationship with the cat; I didn't argue as much about the boyfriend because I do doubt my relationship with him

5) I still think what I wrote above *is* a plan of action; I know from experience working things out beforehand (including writing scripts for difficult conversations) makes it far more likely I will be able to actually gather the courage to initiate; and my reasons need to be crystal clear to me going in or I will be susceptible to emotional pleas to give him another chance; I've been keeping a journal of thoughts on this and trying to clarify to myself what is and is not tolerable to me, and what kind of future I'm going to try to make for myself

6) I wasn't thinking a timeline of years; I was thinking over the next couple of months; I just know I need my ducks in a row if I'm going to get through this; some actions do involve mental/emotional preparation

[smallcleanrat]

Also, I don't think wanting a plan to handle the emotional fallout of a breakup is a trivial concern given my history. In times of extreme isolation I've had severe dissociative episodes and psychotic symptoms. And it's not like I can easily visit friends to help get me through it. I can't even ask for a hug.

You don't appear to be in a relationship now if you can't even get a hug from the boyfriend during normal times.  Why are you still with him if he isn't your rock while you're susceptible to severe dissociative episodes and psychotic symptoms?

You don't need to evaluate a relationship that isn't supportive now.  You need a plan to get out (not a contingency plan, a concrete plan) and get the help you need, even if that's you, the cat, and brand-new friends who have been in similar situations and can now help others as part of a shelter, support group, or some other setup designed to help those who must leave and don't have anywhere to go.  A good therapist can help you get connected with those kinds of groups as part of a leaving plan.

I was talking about if we broke up and I went back to living alone. I won't be able to look to friends much for support because of social distancing and everyone just generally being in a state of unusually high stress and less able to deal with anyone else's.

The only reason this is a conflict for me is that for *years* he was absolutely my rock. The behavior regarding my crisis period and my injury are uncharacteristic. He has held me through panic attacks, reassured me when I doubted my ability to continue school, sat up all night with me in the ER when I had a bad med reaction, and used his PTO days to be by my side at doctor appointments when I felt too sick to be confident I could be assertive and coherent enough to get the doctor to listen to me. He has been patient with my diminished ability to contribute to chores and errands, never complaining. He is understanding about how my dissociation affects me even though I know he misses the old me that would talk and laugh and otherwise be present with him. His usual behavior towards me has been affectionate and caring. Recently he has gone back to that affectionate, caring behavior; I'm just not sure if it's for good this time or not.

It's been since the lockdown started that things just seemed to get overwhelming for him. I think he might have been unresponsive during my crisis because he felt helpless. He had also recently started talking to a therapist himself and a support group for people who have loved ones with mental illness. From what he told me, therapist encouraged *him* to dump *me* because "chronic depressives will always be chronic depressives; they are never completely better." And the people in his support group told him to look after himself first of all. The social isolation meant he couldn't blow off steam with his usual activities like exercise classes and board game nights. I have to acknowledge it isn't easy to have a bipolar partner who has lost stability and not having an easy time regaining it.

So it's been a question of whether I let the behavior of a couple of months outweigh the behavior of the last several years. It's a question of whether this aberration is severe enough to overshadow everything else. My own parents have had times when the stress of seeing me struggle with my mental health has caused them to withdraw or say extremely cruel things (at one point even encouraging me to kill myself). It isn't characteristic of how they relate to me all the time. I learned skills on how to be less affected by the times when they can't be supportive due to their own issues coping and just appreciate the times they can be. I've put distance between us physically and emotionally without severing ties completely and it has worked out better for them and for me.

Conversations in therapy had led me to believe this might be a viable goal for my relationship with my boyfriend. But I'm starting to lean more towards thinking it isn't.

[nonsensical]

Smallcleanrat, this situation sounds incredibly difficult, and I'm sorry that you're experiencing it. On top of all the other unusual stressors going on in the world right now, it must seem even more daunting.

It sounds to me like right now you have a survival toolbox that doesn't have very many tools in it, or perhaps some of the tools aren't working very well. In that context, it can be hard and scary to think about giving up any of the tools. Even if one tool isn't working particularly well, it can be nearly impossible to think about giving it up if it's one of very few tools that a person currently has. It also sounds to me like your relationship with your boyfriend is one of those tools. Regardless of how well it's working, it works at least sometimes to some extent. Getting rid of that tool (breaking up with your boyfriend) would eliminate that tool while also adding the big stressor of going through a break-up. Put that way, it doesn't make any sense to leave the relationship.

Does that sound at all right? I have some other thoughts if it does, which I've typed out below, but please ignore all of this if the stuff I've written above doesn't make sense for your situation.

If what I've written does make sense, I have a few thoughts. One is that a break-up can be a big stressor while it's happening but can make people happier down the road than staying with their partner would have. So while it may seem foolish to add stressors now, one way to think about it is removing future stressors. Of course, staying with your boyfriend could also be a way to do that if he's interested in helping the relationship work better for you and capable of carrying out those interests. From what you've written here it doesn't strike me that that's necessarily the case right now, but I don't know your situation as well as you do and am not really in a position to say.

A second thought is that it might make more sense to add more tools before taking away one that isn't working so well. The tools can be helpful regardless of whether or not you decide to break up, so it doesn't seem to me that there is a down side to trying to add them. Developing your relationship with your therapist might be a good tool because that person could be a source of help and support when stressors occur. You mentioned above that your friends are stressed out themselves and might not be in a good place to offer support. I wonder whether they might be in a better place to just interact without that interaction having the explicit goal of providing support. For instance, would you find it pleasant to do a virtual game night with friends, or go on a hike with them, or text cute cat pictures back and forth? I'm trying to think of some things that might be a nice way to spend some time together and provide support without being about difficult emotional work, if that makes sense. The specific suggestions might not work for you, but maybe there's something that you all can do together sometimes that would feel like a nice way to spend time for everyone? That could potentially be another tool in your toolkit. Posting on this forum and potentially engaging in other online interactions might be a tool. Doing something that you find relaxing might be a tool.

I know all these things are easier said than done, and the specific suggestions here might not work for you. The general point I'm trying to make is that adding more tools can be helpful regardless of whether or not you stay with your boyfriend, and once the tools have been in your toolbox for a while the prospect of leaving might not feel so scary or bad. Or, you might decide to stay in the relationship, in which case you now have more things that you can turn to to feel better, which also seems like a win.

Again, apologies if none of this is speaking to where you are right now - please feel free to ignore if so! Good wishes to you regardless of how you decide to move forward.

[downer]

smallcleanrat

I'm struck that you are spending a lot of time defending your choices here. It must take a good deal of time to compose your very well organized and thoughtful posts.

I'm just wondering whether you are finding the dialog useful to you? You did start the thread asking for feedback on your relationship, so maybe you do. But it also seems that you are in a dialog being put on the defensive with people who don't know you very well. I have a hard time understanding how that could be useful to you.

[smallcleanrat]

smallcleanrat

I'm struck that you are spending a lot of time defending your choices here. It must take a good deal of time to compose your very well organized and thoughtful posts.

I'm just wondering whether you are finding the dialog useful to you? You did start the thread asking for feedback on your relationship, so maybe you do. But it also seems that you are in a dialog being put on the defensive with people who don't know you very well. I have a hard time understanding how that could be useful to you.

Mm...I didn't think that was what I was doing (except maybe with the cat). I'll try to pay more attention to avoid defensiveness.

A lot of my responses were trying to clarify points that seemed to have been misunderstood. Like why am I posting here if I have a therapist helping me with a break-up action plan? I'm *not* getting help with a break-up action plan in therapy. You can't even get a hug from your boyfriend? I can; I was referring to other people being unavailable post-breakup due to COVID. That kind of thing.

And when I give reasons I am hesitant to take a certain action or have doubts it's not necessarily a defense of the way I'm doing things now. These are just the specific things I think I have to figure out to move forward. Is this what you meant?

A lot of what I write in my posts are things that have been on my mind (and in my journal) for quite a while now; I sketch outlines trying to connect thoughts to make a coherent whole. Posting here and reading other people's opinions and responses helps me clarify my thoughts or consider questions I hadn't thought of. It can help me restructure what's going on inside my head and get me unstuck. I guess it doesn't come across that way to some, but I honestly try to integrate the feedback I get here into my thought process.

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I was initially hoping to think of ways to improve communication and regain trust, as that seemed to be what the therapists were encouraging. Now I'm more in the mindset of looking at whether this is going to work long-term, and what I would have to do if I need to leave the relationship and adapt to living alone again. So...yes, I do find the dialog useful.

[the_geneticist]

Smallcleanrat, it takes two people working together to regain trust.  Maybe I'm overstepping, but it sounds to me like your boyfriend WANTS this relationship to end, but isn't brave enough to do it.  He told you his therapist said he should end the relationship - that's quite the zap to put on your head.  Now he can think of himself as heroic simply by not leaving. 
Who's name is on the lease?  Can you afford this place on your own?  If yes, then my vote is to make HIM leave.
Ending a relationship doesn't mean that you have to move out.

[smallcleanrat]

Smallcleanrat, it takes two people working together to regain trust.  Maybe I'm overstepping, but it sounds to me like your boyfriend WANTS this relationship to end, but isn't brave enough to do it.  He told you his therapist said he should end the relationship - that's quite the zap to put on your head.  Now he can think of himself as heroic simply by not leaving. 
Who's name is on the lease?  Can you afford this place on your own?  If yes, then my vote is to make HIM leave.
Ending a relationship doesn't mean that you have to move out.

He decided not to continue with that therapist, noting she made that judgment during their very first session when she knew almost nothing about me or about our relationship. She said her advice was "based on all my experience with depressed people." She also said people with depression shouldn't breed because it's hereditary and depressed people make poor parents anyway since they aren't able to be emotionally available to their children, which he thought was a weirdly broad and biased statement.

I've asked him about whether he wants to separate for his own sake. I told him if he was really unhappy I didn't want him hanging around on my account; I don't want to be the reason he's miserable. I do care about him and I believe he cares about me, so I felt we could handle a break-up amicably and practically (i.e. no screaming matches or throwing someone out the door on the spot). The lease is in both our names, but if either one of us moves the other has to as well. We are in student housing for students with partners and/or children. No partner means no housing eligibility for me. And he's only able to live here because he's the partner of a student; he can't stay if I leave. We do have separate rooms, so we could possibly have a roommate relationship until our lease is up. Unlike with mamselle's situation, there is no safety concern adding urgency towards moving.

But he told me he wants to try to make things work; that he was overly stressed and wasn't thinking clearly and said things he regrets. He's been apologetic and back to being caring and supportive. I posted a while back on ways he has supported me through my health issues, and people on that thread said "He sounds like a keeper." Unlike with mamselle's situation, if I *hadn't* stayed with him I might not be alive right now. nonsensical's toolbox analogy is spot on. I currently am getting support from the relationship, so ending things without an idea of how I will compensate without that support isn't something I have the courage to do right now. I feel safer and more grounded with him than without him, just not to the same extent as before.

polly_mer, I'm not sure why nothing I post here seems like evaluating or planning to you. I feel like that's what I'm doing by 1) prioritizing getting stronger mentally and physically so I can better withstand stressful events 2) joining a relationship skills group 3) working through my thoughts to settle on my decisions and the reasons for them so I can act with conviction and the other things I mentioned. So, like with the cat, I don't know why you insist I am doing absolutely nothing about the situation. Maybe it's that you don't think I'm doing enough, but am I really doing absolutely nothing? I'm doing what I think I can handle at the moment, trying to get myself to a point where I can handle more.

I seem to be earning a lot of scorn from you lately, and I try to see where you're coming from but I don't always understand. It's been quite dispiriting since I respect you and have really appreciated your feedback. I'm not sure if you think I'm too lazy to act, too stubborn to take advice, or just too dense to see obvious solutions. I'm sorry if I've gotten annoying with my posts; I know I sometimes focus too much on the wrong things without realizing. I'll try to be better about this. I don't want to be off-putting here because I really do value people's responses.

[marshwiggle]

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I haven't commented yet, but no one has brought this up so I will.

Have you discussed relationships with friends, family members, etc.  with your therapist? The reason I ask is that you've mentioned problematic relationships with professors and colleagues, and it occurred to me that if you haven't identified any single extended relationship as healthy and supportive it's hard to tell if your expectations are reasonable or not.

It seems at least possible that the therapist saying "it depends" may be based on the difficulty of differentiating your relationship from your perception of your relationship.

[polly_mer]

I seem to be earning a lot of scorn from you lately, and I try to see where you're coming from but I don't always understand. It's been quite dispiriting since I respect you and have really appreciated your feedback.

It's not scorn; I post bluntly out of great concern for you because the waffling on how serious things are when things are really, really serious is usually a big red flag that someone needs help to leave an abusive situation. I tend to default to blunt when I see someone get lost in the details and I think the focus has to be on the big picture to get the help.

For example, the narrative of your relationship on this thread did not start with

My boyfriend of N years who has been my rock for all those years while I have have my mental and physical health issues has become much less helpful since the COVID shutdown.  He is now distant and is much less available to me.  We have done some counseling together, but he doesn't want to go any more.  We're having trouble just living in the same space at this point... 

Instead, the narrative was more like,

I'm in huge distress right now and this jerk won't even move to the other side of the couch to prevent physically hurting me.  We recently got a cat who hurts him and likes me, so I'm just letting him sort that out.  <much much later> Oh, by the way, I'm in such serious distress that I am suicidal just by looking at items, but I can't have the cat go elsewhere because that cat's life really matters in the big picture.  I am so isolated from my friends and family (generally a red flag of being in an abusive relationship) that I wouldn't have anyone if I left him.


The first situation is indeed more of a wait and see while focusing on personal mental health issues.  The second situation is very much a "get out now before it escalates" situation.

polly_mer, I'm not sure why nothing I post here seems like evaluating or planning to you. I feel like that's what I'm doing by 1) prioritizing getting stronger mentally and physically so I can better withstand stressful events 2) joining a relationship skills group 3) working through my thoughts to settle on my decisions and the reasons for them so I can act with conviction and the other things I mentioned.

I worry when people focus on activities that can expand into years without results instead of working a plan that may take years, but each step is a logical progression towards a goal.

For example, checking into a treatment facility to get medication and perspective is a direct action in the prioritizing health plan.  Increasing frequency of visits with medical professionals or being in the step of evaluating effects as medications are adjusted are also direct actions.  You may be doing those things, but those things are not front and center in the posts on this thread.  Instead, you justified why things weren't so bad using the same words that people in abusive relationships tend to use.

Focusing on reconnecting with friends and family virtually so that not all your emotional needs fall on one person is an action that will likely pay off on the emotional strengthening goal.  Yes, physical distancing is a problem, but the impression from your posts was being so isolated from other humans that you had no friends and were at risk of living on the streets if you left (again, common for abusive situations and therefore very concerning about the need to act quickly).  If you had to leave your current housing, then you could bubble up with other people who could give you hugs.  One solid argument for the cat is the physical affection from another living creature, even if the interactions with humans has to remain virtual.

An example of a non-productive activity that feels like doing something, but doesn't generally move someone towards the goal is joining the relationship group.  If the problem at home is cabin fever and too much togetherness, then a better coping mechanism is more interaction with friends and community doing something you used to enjoy, could enjoy, or might want to do just to have human interaction.  Years ago, we had a friend who in short order lost all her family members and directly stated that her biggest need was to be with other people, but not have to interact.  She was invited for months to come sit in a comfy chair, read her book, and just hang out with people around, but no social demands.

If the problem is a true relationship problem like wanting different things out of life now that you're both in different life stages, then, as you have pointed out, it's not completely your responsibility to fix things.  You can acquire new communication skills through a workshop, but if you folks were great for years, then communication itself is unlikely to be the problem.  A neutral party like a therapist could help sort through issues, but if the problem is more the boyfriend hitting the end of his rope during a very stressful time, then just talking about the stress is much less likely to result in positive change than doing whatever can be done to relieve the stress.

A possibly more productive action is implementing respite care (formal or informal).  That allows you to interact with additional people in a safe way and gives the boyfriend permission to do some self care while knowing you are safe.


To summarize, there are many actions to take if the goals are:

* Better physical and mental health

* Making a coherent plan to go forward

However, spending a lot of time directly on feelings to fluctuate between "this is really, really serious and I need help, people!" and "No, it's not really that serious, why do you keep insisting this is serious?" is a big red flag to me of someone who needs the blunt to move on to action to address the really, truly, no-foolin' serious aspects instead being allowed to bury the serious in much less serious areas that can be wait and see.  For the Nth time, that waffling is typical for people who are in need of the most help to move on, especially those in abusive situations.

[smallcleanrat]

Thanks for explaining further, polly-mer.

I thought your underlying message was more "Shut up and go away" than it was "I'm going to be blunt for your own good."

Kind of a lot to unpack in your post, but I am working through a response to the points you bring up here. Maybe I didn't present things in a very coherent way; I know I was adding to the story piecemeal. I think some of the things I meant to convey here didn't come through.

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I haven't commented yet, but no one has brought this up so I will.

Have you discussed relationships with friends, family members, etc.  with your therapist? The reason I ask is that you've mentioned problematic relationships with professors and colleagues, and it occurred to me that if you haven't identified any single extended relationship as healthy and supportive it's hard to tell if your expectations are reasonable or not.

It seems at least possible that the therapist saying "it depends" may be based on the difficulty of differentiating your relationship from your perception of your relationship.

It's a fair point, marshwiggle. But this is actually something I've been thinking about and discussing for quite a while.

I have had relationships with healthy and supportive dynamics, just not consistently so. Things fluctuate, but since COVID there seems to be a lot more relationships downs than ups. I think this is the first time in my life practically every relationship has had a major downturn within the same period of time. Usually, even if one relationship hit a snag I had at least one other that was ok. Now it just seems like every type of relationship I have is going downhill.

Keeping expectations reasonable is a consideration often in the forefront of my mind; most of my adult life has involved whittling down my expectations of other people and taking more agency in my own life. When I'm not sure about the reasonableness of an expectations, I try to get the what's and why's of other people's opinions. It may not have been explicitly mentioned in this thread, but I have brought it up in other threads and in therapy.

There is also an implicit question about expectations in my description of the boyfriend-grabbing-injured-hand situation. Expectation: if I request that boyfriend cease action that causes me physical pain, boyfriend will cease the action. I thought this was reasonable, so I was upset that he kept forgetting. I think the message I was getting in therapy was that an expectation can be reasonable without someone's failure to meet that expectation being a relationship deal-breaker.

I think "it depends" refers to the fact that what is tolerable and what isn't is highly individual.

Recent expectations disappointed (that I don't see as overly demanding):

Friend(s)/Colleague(s): If someone needs to back out of plans to meet, they will take the 30 seconds or less required to send a message telling the other person involved. They will not simply let the other person show up, waiting around, messaging in vain, wondering what's happened. Doubly so if the plans are to meet for a meal; otherwise the other person is also waiting around hungry.

Professor: When asking *both* your TAs if they have any thoughts or questions, don't just close the chat as soon as your favorite TA is finished speaking (in meeting after meeting); the other one might have something to say as well. In fact, the other one may have been in the act of speaking when you closed the chat. And the other one may be especially worth listening to as she's the one actually doing the work when you tell the two of us to work on something "together." Please treat me as though I exist.

Professor: When your TA is highly distressed and explicitly states suicidal intent, don't just say goodbye, close the chat, and go about your business. Take a minute or so at least to contact someone...*anyone*...who might be able to help that person. Especially don't contact that TA a month later asking for a favor cleaning up a mess the other TA caused without so much as a "Hi, how are you?" Some kind of greeting is basic politeness, whether that person was in crisis the last time you spoke or not.

Labmates: If the reason you have been pulling away from me lately is because my health issues have made you uncomfortable (verified this with one of the labmates), that's disappointing, but I can accept it. And planning an end-of-term lunch together without inviting me...again, disappointing, but understandable if my presence makes you uncomfortable. But did you really have to be so blatant about it? Talking about it right in front of me, picking up your coats all as a group and giving me sidelong glances as you went out the door?

Labmates + PI: If someone is on the floor on hands and knees because some kind of allergic reaction is making breathing difficult by swelling throat and tongue, take a few seconds to ask if they are ok and if they need help. Don't just walk past, assuming they can just ask for help if needed. Especially don't do it a second time when a similar thing happens a month later (and after you've had a discussion in which you promised to quickly check in should you ever see someone on the floor again). Getting the feeling I could drop dead without anyone realizing despite being surrounded by people is demoralizing, to say the least.

Parents: Eh...Did a lot of work to accept that, for some people, expecting them to stop being abusive may actually be expecting too much. If they are too in denial that anything they've ever done was wrong, and too convinced that you are the source of every problem, not much is going to change. Just put up whatever boundaries you need to protect yourself, and keep whatever level of contact you feel is of benefit (or at least is not harmful) to you.

I do suspect there are elements about the way I socialize and try to connect with people which may be alienating sometimes; I could certainly aim to improve my people skills. I just don't think unreasonably high expectations of others is a major issue at this point. I've gotten to a point where I'm reluctant to reduce my expectations any further, as I feel I would be getting more entrenched into a mindset of thinking I don't deserve the same level of common courtesy as everybody else.

[smallcleanrat]

Instead, the narrative was more like,

I'm in huge distress right now and this jerk won't even move to the other side of the couch to prevent physically hurting me.  We recently got a cat who hurts him and likes me, so I'm just letting him sort that out.  <much much later> Oh, by the way, I'm in such serious distress that I am suicidal just by looking at items, but I can't have the cat go elsewhere because that cat's life really matters in the big picture.  I am so isolated from my friends and family (generally a red flag of being in an abusive relationship) that I wouldn't have anyone if I left him.

Ok, I'm sorry I wasn't more coherent. Currently, I'm struggling, but I am not in crisis. And in the even that does happen, I have already worked out a safety plan with my treatment team. Boyfriend seems to have gotten past the worst of his burnout and is asking me to trust him again to be a source of support and safety; I've just been having trouble doing that because of how devastating it was to reach for that support in a time of extreme distress and find it absent.

I didn't start talking about the cat on this thread until you brought it up as evidence that I don't care enough about my boyfriend to justify a relationship. I don't see the cat as a relationship issue nor does my boyfriend. And no one on the cat thread seemed to think so either. The cat likes both of us, he just plays too rough with boyfriend because boyfriend is not consistent about discouraging the behavior. Consensus on the cat thread was that at this point letting him sort that out is what has to happen at this point. And you did chide me in an earlier post here about seemingly not being receptive to the consensus opinion.

I am isolated from family and friends, but this is not boyfriend's doing. My family would like to be closer if I would let them, but that would come with the expectation that I defer to their judgment on most of my life choices, and it's either capitulate or more conflict that I don't think I can deal with at moment. Friends are mostly just busy. They have careers, kids, and now all the additional work-life juggling due to the pandemic. I've been so shutdown for so long I haven't had much to offer other people, so I haven't been terribly successful at building close friendships of the sort that would survive through all this. The friend I was closest too more recently said and did some unkind things, lashing out due to stress. He apologized, but it still stings. None of this is boyfriend's fault. He encourages me to socialize.

For example, the narrative of your relationship on this thread did not start with

My boyfriend of N years who has been my rock for all those years while I have have my mental and physical health issues has become much less helpful since the COVID shutdown.  He is now distant and is much less available to me.  We have done some counseling together, but he doesn't want to go any more.  We're having trouble just living in the same space at this point... 

I guess that's what I should have done, because that's a better description of the way things are now. Except we're not currently having trouble living in the same space, though we've mostly suspended difficult discussions that probably still need to happen. But things are relatively ok for the short term.

Focusing on reconnecting with friends and family virtually so that not all your emotional needs fall on one person is an action that will likely pay off on the emotional strengthening goal.  Yes, physical distancing is a problem, but the impression from your posts was being so isolated from other humans that you had no friends and were at risk of living on the streets if you left (again, common for abusive situations and therefore very concerning about the need to act quickly).

I have been trying to maintain connections with other people, and prior to this was not putting all my emotional needs on my boyfriend. I reserved most of it for myself and my treatment team to deal with. I only brought him into it if I wasn't doing well handling it without him; he told me he wanted me to feel ok coming to him if things got bad and not keep him in the dark.

I didn't mean to give the impression I would be at risk of living on the streets. I said if we went our separate ways I would have to move, which is true. I have people I know I am friendly with, but mostly not close with. I've been trying to engage in friendly interaction of the type nonsensical describes (nothing heavy, just socializing). Sometimes it results in a conversation, but most of the time not. I'm still trying.

For example, checking into a treatment facility to get medication and perspective is a direct action in the prioritizing health plan.  Increasing frequency of visits with medical professionals or being in the step of evaluating effects as medications are adjusted are also direct actions.  You may be doing those things, but those things are not front and center in the posts on this thread.

No, I haven't much discussed these things on this thread, but I have on the mental health thread. It didn't seem directly relationship-related to me, so I left it out on this thread.

An example of a non-productive activity that feels like doing something, but doesn't generally move someone towards the goal is joining the relationship group.
.......
You can acquire new communication skills through a workshop, but if you folks were great for years, then communication itself is unlikely to be the problem.  A neutral party like a therapist could help sort through issues, but if the problem is more the boyfriend hitting the end of his rope during a very stressful time, then just talking about the stress is much less likely to result in positive change than doing whatever can be done to relieve the stress.

1) I think you might be making an unwarranted assumption about the relationship group being non-productive. It's a group at the outpatient program I'm currently in, and isn't intended to be long-term. The structure of the group has individuals sharing a specific issue they want feedback on. Group leader and other members provide suggestions on

A) Considering things from different perspectives
B) Strategize on problem-solving. From session to session, members report on actions they've tried since the last time and what the results were. This may lead to some fine-tuning or restrategizing if things didn't go well.
C) Managing emotions in the context of preparation (called "coping ahead"). If you know you are likely to respond a certain way, and that this response is maladaptive, then you plan beforehand how you are going to handle it so it doesn't impede your ability to follow through with your action plan.

I still think it matches your criteria for "doing something"; does it still sound non-productive?

I was in a similar group years ago and it certainly did help me improve my relationship with my parents.

2) Just because things were good for years doesn't mean communication was good in all domains. We communicated well for the most part, but there were some sore spots we never really figured out how to resolve. So I think there is benefit from working on communication, and most likely it will involve reexamining our expectations of each other.

3) Talking about how to deal with the stress is the step preceding taking further action to deal with the stress. It's not the complete solution. If I don't talk to him, how can I know what actions to take? I'd just be guessing, which seems less likely to be effective than if I ask him what he needs and we experiment with solutions to find what works.

Final Note RE: Recognizing an Abusive Relationship: I do recognize that it's easy for the person actually in the relationship to assess their situation accurately, but I have been willing to pay attention to and evaluate other people's perspectives. Not immediately springing into action when I get advice (even if it's great advice), doesn't mean I'm rejecting it. It's just that in order to act with conviction (i.e. without waffling), I have to make sense of things.

I will note here that not a single therapist so far has called my relationship with my boyfriend abusive (one major reason I'm very unsure about giving up on it). And I contrast this with back when I was reaching a breaking point with my parents, when every therapist I talked to didn't hesitate to say "That's abuse" (or "That's not parenting, that's bullying" at the mildest).

[polly_mer]

<putting back on the blunt hat>

1) What do you want from us?  That's an honest question about how we can best support you as a unique individual that we as strangers on the internet can provide.  Possible options include, but are not limited to, (using a name instead of possibly confusing pronouns of me and you):

• Just let smallcleanrat vent and provide affirmation that life is hard.  Wait until a specific question is asked or feedback is sought to provide advice.



• Always provide feedback to smallcleanrat on how the situation looks to the outsider as described, but sugarcoat it as much as possible because the negatives will remain private in therapy.


• Always provide feedback to smallcleanrat, but be as blunt as possible to clear up misunderstandings.  Readers/writers should keep in mind that smallcleanrat needs to preserve some privacy so not all the details will be provided immediately and not all discussions occur in one place.

2) Yes, I still think the relationship group is a non-activity that takes up valuable time and energy that doesn't contribute to stated goals.  I am very skeptical of single-purpose groups where the bonding is over negative attributes instead of positive attributes so that addressing the attributes (i.e., getting better) means losing emotional support and possibly the only current emotional support.  I would be much less worried if you had joined a book club or something similarly covid-safe-as-virtual where sometimes personal relationships are discussed among friends than joining a relationship group where everyone except the facilitator needs help (and even some facilitators will be better at the intellectual parts than the messy emotional parts in their own lives).

3) The issues related to having friends/colleagues/family who value you for being you still remains worrying in your last posts.  I will wait to see what your answer to 1 is before I continue pulling that thread.

[smallcleanrat]

Answering out of order here, and going to try to make this my last mammoth post for a while as I imagine people are pretty tired of them.

2) I still don't agree that the group is useless. Why this assumption that it's the *only* source of support? I never said that at all? You keep inserting assumptions I didn't even realize I needed to head off at the pass; I don't know if I need to change how I write so I don't imply things to don't mean, but I try to be careful. There is no exclusivity contract saying I can't also look for non-treatment related social connections. I also think working towards getting better *is* a positive attribute. Losing the group also does not mean losing support from individual group members. I text outside of group with a few people from the program and it's helpful in a way that talking to someone who "doesn't need help" rarely does.

And I tried to explain as best I could the primary purpose of the group is NOT social support, it is SKILL-BUILDING and PROBLEM-SOLVING. The action-oriented stuff you keep telling me I'm not doing. Getting help writing a script for getting through a difficult conversation serves a function that a book club won't. It's not ALL about emotions; I've said this many times. You didn't respond to these details even to refute them and it was the whole point of that part of my post.

3) The only reason I can report on those issues is because of trying to reach out and make connections. It's a work in progress. And how easy is it for anyone to find someone who values you for you? Isn't people valuing you for certain aspects of you more the norm? And I'm not myself anymore; haven't been for a long time. I feel like a nonentity; I'm sure I often present as a nonentity. If someone didn't know the old me, what is there to value about this diminished me? If socializing requires synchronicity (in-person vs online messages) I can't time my interactions to when I'm a bit more present and less shutdown. It's a real hindrance when trying to connect with new people.

My parents, my boyfriend, a few old friends...they remember the old me. They are still in my life to some degree, and that's still something I am grateful for, even if some of the closeness is gone.

1) I have some specific relationship-related questions (that I thought could be asked as relatively self-contained scenarios). I have conflicted feelings about them and have been getting conflicted opinions from non-fora people who are not all as practiced at explaining to someone else *why* they have those opinions. These are questions I would still want to hear fora input on even if boyfriend and I had broken up, because I would eventually want to be in another relationship one day.

My first question was about the handholding habit. It felt like a big deal at the time. Then I got lots of out-of-fora input to try to be more understanding and forgiving and to find ways to discourage his habit other than expecting him to remember. I tried on this mindset but couldn't quite settle into it. I tend to get different takes from people on the fora than I do from people I talk to outside of it. So I asked if this would have bothered anyone else. When I get stuck on something I like to learn other people's opinions and experiences; I've said this above.

I do pay attention when people mention how the big picture looks from an outside perspective, but mostly those posts are written with the tone of "If it helps, here's my take on it." Yours come across more as "Stop being such an idiot!" and I've tried to see where you're coming from, reading your responses very carefully but never seem to get it right. I'm just as much an idiot from one post to the next.

I didn't realize that first question would lead to such intense scrutiny of the entire relationship (and the rest of my life) and that I would have to scramble to try to clear up misconceptions. Maybe that was stupid of me. I'm sorry; I'm trying.

Everything I say here lately seems to have something fundamentally wrong with it. I've gotten so many replies from you that seem to boil down to "Stop! Everything you are doing is terrible!" Which isn't necessarily unhelpful, but is way more overwhelming than talking about one specific subset of topics at a time. No matter how much thought I put into my replies, how much I think I am addressing your points, the next response is always "Everything you are doing is still terrible!" And you often don't comment on what I feel are my most significant points so I don't even know if you read them.

Observation: you say things like "why bother asking *us* anything at all?" Or "what do you want from *us*?" But honestly it's your posts specifically that have baffled me the most and had me struggling to figure out how to respond. Your first response to my post about the handholding was to reference a completely different thread and essentially say "obviously neither of you cares about the other." It was a bold statement with an extremely brief explanation. What were you actually expecting me to take away from that? Was it supposed to be like cold water to the face, waking me up to the reality we had "no business being in a relationship?" Because all it did was confuse me.

This was followed by "what the hell is wrong with you? Get rid of the damn cat!" Which later became "why do you keep talking about unimportant things like the damn cat?!?" Well, it's because you kept bashing me over the head with it, never commenting on any of the explanation I gave on why your assessment of the cat as a symptom of a loveless relationship didn't make the slightest bit of sense to me. You switched your point to "having a cat to take care of right now is a terrible idea."

Downer was right upthread; the only thing happening here anymore is me trying to explain myself to you (and then getting a lot of the things I say ignored). I only seem to frustrate you and if you still think I'm being an idiot by not coming around to your point of view I hope, at the very least, you can believe me when I say it hasn't been for lack of trying. Maybe it's just a case of pearls before swine; I really don't know.

Polly_mer, if nothing I've said on this post has made me seem the slightest bit less dense than the last, then maybe the thread can move in a better direction if I stop posting here for awhile. Not in a farewell-cruel-fora sense. Just that I don't have anything to say anymore that is substantially different from what I've already said. I could try changing to a different relationship topic, but it might just devolve the same way my last one did.

You took a lot of time responding to me, and I do appreciate the effort and good intention. I felt a lot of things when reading your posts, but at least I didn't feel invisible.

[Caracal]

I think lots of people operate with the assumption that if you're posting on this board about relationship problems, stuff isn't going well. I get annoyed at my partner all the time about things. We talk (or you know, yell) about it, say what we need to say and move along. I don't need outside input. The problem with relationship advice is that people can't have a full picture. That's often used as an excuse in cases where someone should clearly be listening to advice to leave a relationship, but it makes a good excuse because it is true.

When other people evaluate your relationship, they do so by their own metrics of what they want. I think its a bad sign that you don't actually seem able to be able to discuss these problems with your boyfriend. But I can't deal with unexpressed conflict. My partner and I will have a 30 minute heated discussion about how we didn't like each other's tone. A lot of people would find that pretty exhausting, but they aren't the ones married to either of us.

It seems like you want a universal judgement and it isn't going to happen. Maybe your boyfriend is a controlling jerk. Or perhaps he's just a nice guy who is pretty oblivious. Or maybe it is somewhere in between. You also could break up with him even if he isn't a bad dude. It could be that you guys once worked well together and now don't anymore. Lots of nice, perfectly lovely people break up all the time and hopefully go date someone else who can provide them with what they need in their lives.

However, nobody here, or in the therapy group is going to be able to tell you what to do .

[downer]

 smallcleanrat

The Fora may be a good place to get support and it may be a good place to discuss some academic and political issues. That will vary.

But a lot of posters have their own agendas and styles that don't fit well with providing good personal advice. As I indicated previously, I have been dubious whether you are getting great advice here. I could not tell if you were getting much from the interaction, and you seemed to be putting a lot of effort in. If you did find it worthwhile, then that's all fine. But you seemed to be getting tangled in long interactions that were not going anywhere. I don't know if you are looking for someone to tell you want to do -- I don't really get that sense. If it is a good way for you to reflect on your relationship, that's great. But it is important to always keep in mind the inherent dangers of getting advice from strangers on the internet.