The Relationship Thread

[smallcleanrat]

Hi, Caracal.

I...uh...What did I write to make you think I wanted 1) universal judgment? Or 2) someone to "tell me what to do" (this is the opposite of what I wrote! People are already *telling* me what to do. I said I needed to process what people were telling me so that I clearly saw the reasoning behind it in order to own the decision and have the conviction to take action. Just doing it because someone *told* me it was the best action is a bad idea.)

I know people can't have the full picture. That's why initially I didn't try to ask for evaluations on the whole relationship, and asked about a specific issue.

When other people evaluate your relationship, they do so by their own metrics of what they want.

Yes! Exactly! That's why it's helpful. What works for one relationship won't work for another. Knowing a bit more about the different dynamics in other people's relationships gives me a better sense of the possibilities.

I thought responses would be more in the form of "If it were me..." because I figures it was impossible to give enough description of my own relationship for anyone to judge my own as a whole.

I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.

[Liquidambar]

I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.

Please don't freak out.  I feel like I've understood most of your communication throughout this thread.  I just didn't reply because I didn't have anything relevant to say.

My sense is that the discussion here got off on the wrong foot because the handholding issue required more context.  That's the one thing I'd identify as a communication problem, which has since been rectified.

My impression is that we're watching your thought process as you consider things.  I think that can be a difficult thing to observe in an online context since there's a tendency for people to think, "But we already talked about this.  The prior discussion must not be what she wanted.  What does she want?" when you're still processing.  You're not obligated to provide us with answers, and you can use the fora this way if it's helpful to you.

[polly_mer]

I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with what you communicate so much as I am a very, very different person from you with different experiences.  Sometimes, a different perspective helps.  Sometimes, not.  I do hear you, but I disagree that continuing to do what you are doing will somehow result in a different-in-the-desired-way result.  For example, that whole last post was essentially "Please tell me that I'm basically on the right path and only need to tinker at the edges". 

Decades ago, I did a phone survey on television shows including sometimes variations on a title.  One question in particular sticks in my mind because the surveyor kept going down the list and I kept saying, "Changing the title does nothing to change my assessment that I won't tune in because I don't watch nature specials".  Something similar is in play when I disagree with the theory underlying the proposed action you've presented. 

For example, therapy and medication to treat mental illness are valuable tools.  I don't agree that one can learn the necessary skill-building and problem-solving from a relationship group, especially if the focus is on scripts and self reports.  People can build their social intelligence through coaching and mentoring, but that includes direct observation of the activities in a natural setting.  Family and friends can provide valuable feedback on the pattern, not just the one-off behavior.  Personal opinion: an intellectual approach to relationships in the abstract is generally
far less useful to specific relationships than accepting each relationship as its own thing.

Likewise, I disagree that treating relationship problems as a series of one-offs is more useful than the patterns when the series is more than one isolated question every couple of years.  If you  are routinely asking, "How bad is this?", then the overall pattern is "Bad enough because during good times, one doesn't have the ongoing series of questions".  If you're setting up an outlet to deal with the whole series one at a time, then, personal opinion based on observation and some personal experience, that indicates a much greater need to focus on the big picture where real change can happen to break the series.

You can, of course, just disengage because I am a stranger on the internet and my opinion does not matter one whit.  However, since you keep asking questions,  but focus on how the answers you get aren't the ones you want, my bet is you do want to change, but aren't yet at the place where you accept that what you are doing isn't going to get you there.  I could be wrong because I don't know you.  Decades of pattern observations for people who react similarly for advice that isn't what they expect or want indicates my being wrong in this area is a much lower probability than someone who wants to be affirmed in hopeful thinking that certain actions will make the desired changes.

[smallcleanrat]

Thanks for responding in a friendly way, Polly_mer.

I see you more as Internet acquaintance. There's no way I would have tried this hard with someone I'd never interacted with before. I respect you enough to care about trying to find some common understanding.

It's not that you're not giving me the answers I want so much as ignoring a good chunk of what I write. I noted you don't comment on what I think are my most salient points even to say you disagree. You still don't acknowledge you do this. And you're just wrong about skills groups. Factually wrong. I've been helped by skills groups before. Friends and family gave terrible advice. Maybe groups don't always help or don't often help or rarely help. I haven't looked at large-scale studies. But you're just wrong if you think they *can't* help. This is why it's so maddening when you ignore things like me saying I found a relationship skills group tremendously helpful in the past. You don't even bother to say you think I'm lying or deluded, you just ignore.

For now, can we just agree to disagree?

[Cheerful]

But it is important to always keep in mind the inherent dangers of getting advice from strangers on the internet.

+1

Smallcleanrat, sounds like you are making good progress with your treatment, celebrate this achievement!  Keep going.

Please be careful with feedback you're getting on this thread.  People here do not and cannot know critically important details that you, your therapists, doctors, people in your treatment group, and your partner know.

Some of the advice and feedback you're getting here is highly questionable and not from experts trained in mental health and relationships.  Something to be super cautious about with the fora:  a poster can "pose" as an authority when they are actually speaking well beyond their scope of expertise.  EDIT:  This is so serious that I'm going to go ahead and say "stop listening to polly_mer."

In some ways, your posts here are similar to journaling which I understand is often recommended by therapists.  But, most importantly, please continue to lean on and rely on experts who know your situation and what is best for you rather than Internet people.

[marshwiggle]

When I first posted, my aim was mainly to see if these things seemed serious to other people. My gut initially told me yes, therapists seemed to be telling me "it depends," but now I'm getting responses on the fora saying yes.

I haven't commented yet, but no one has brought this up so I will.

Have you discussed relationships with friends, family members, etc.  with your therapist? The reason I ask is that you've mentioned problematic relationships with professors and colleagues, and it occurred to me that if you haven't identified any single extended relationship as healthy and supportive it's hard to tell if your expectations are reasonable or not.

It seems at least possible that the therapist saying "it depends" may be based on the difficulty of differentiating your relationship from your perception of your relationship.

It's a fair point, marshwiggle. But this is actually something I've been thinking about and discussing for quite a while.

I have had relationships with healthy and supportive dynamics, just not consistently so. Things fluctuate, but since COVID there seems to be a lot more relationships downs than ups. I think this is the first time in my life practically every relationship has had a major downturn within the same period of time. Usually, even if one relationship hit a snag I had at least one other that was ok. Now it just seems like every type of relationship I have is going downhill.

(As always, what I say is based on my perception of what you describe, which may not be  accurate.)

I would say that I have had few major disappointments in relationships. It's not because I have been phenominally lucky in the people I've come in contact with; it's partly that "I tend to keep relationship expectations narrow. (As opposed to low.) For instance, I've had work colleagues for decades whom I enjoy working with, but we don't sociallize other than at department-related events.  I have neighbours with whom I have pleasant conversations "over the fence", but with whom I have no other social interaction. I have good relationships with all of my adult children, but I don't expect them to come to me for advice about major life decisions, and they don't come to me for finacial help even though I am more finacially secure. Since getting married, I have set aside certain interests, types of food, etc. as they aren't popular with my spouse (and my spouse has made similar changes). 

When I have had very unpleasant experiences with people, I have as much as possible ceased (or at least minimized) contact with them as much as possible.

The point in all of these is that I have not tried to force these relationships (or the people in them) into what I might have wished them to be.

Professor: When your TA is highly distressed and explicitly states suicidal intent, don't just say goodbye, close the chat, and go about your business. Take a minute or so at least to contact someone...*anyone*...who might be able to help that person. Especially don't contact that TA a month later asking for a favor cleaning up a mess the other TA caused without so much as a "Hi, how are you?" Some kind of greeting is basic politeness, whether that person was in crisis the last time you spoke or not.

Labmates: If the reason you have been pulling away from me lately is because my health issues have made you uncomfortable (verified this with one of the labmates), that's disappointing, but I can accept it. And planning an end-of-term lunch together without inviting me...again, disappointing, but understandable if my presence makes you uncomfortable. But did you really have to be so blatant about it? Talking about it right in front of me, picking up your coats all as a group and giving me sidelong glances as you went out the door?

These situations put pressure on professional relationships to provide much more than would normally be required.

If a grad student had a car breakdown on the way to work, so that they couldn't be there to TA a lab, it would be reasonable to ask another grad student (who is or has been a TA for the same course) to cover, with a promise to return the favour in the future.

If a person received news that a close family member was diagnosed with a terminal illness, having a colleague sit down over to coffee (at work) to talk during that initial shock would not be unreasonable.

These are examples of accomodations that wouldn't be unreasonable precisely because they are very limited in scope and context.

I do suspect there are elements about the way I socialize and try to connect with people which may be alienating sometimes; I could certainly aim to improve my people skills. I just don't think unreasonably high expectations of others is a major issue at this point. I've gotten to a point where I'm reluctant to reduce my expectations any further, as I feel I would be getting more entrenched into a mindset of thinking I don't deserve the same level of common courtesy as everybody else.

My apologies if this sounds insensitive, but the mental health challenges you have described suggest that giving you the help you need may require much more than other people are expected to provide in other similar relationships. So I'm not sure "common courtesy" applies in all of those cases.

[Caracal]

Hi, Caracal.

I...uh...What did I write to make you think I wanted 1) universal judgment? Or 2) someone to "tell me what to do" (this is the opposite of what I wrote! People are already *telling* me what to do. I said I needed to process what people were telling me so that I clearly saw the reasoning behind it in order to own the decision and have the conviction to take action. Just doing it because someone *told* me it was the best action is a bad idea.)

I know people can't have the full picture. That's why initially I didn't try to ask for evaluations on the whole relationship, and asked about a specific issue.

When other people evaluate your relationship, they do so by their own metrics of what they want.

Yes! Exactly! That's why it's helpful. What works for one relationship won't work for another. Knowing a bit more about the different dynamics in other people's relationships gives me a better sense of the possibilities.

I thought responses would be more in the form of "If it were me..." because I figures it was impossible to give enough description of my own relationship for anyone to judge my own as a whole.

I feel like something's gone drastically wrong with how I communicate. It really feels like I'm losing my mind. I think I'm saying one thing, but people seem to be getting a very different message. I don't recall this ever happening to such an extent. I'm actually pretty freaked out.

No, I don't think you're losing your mind or that you're blindly accepting advice. What I meant was that sometimes soliciting too much advice can be counterproductive. You end up spending too much time trying to think about the advice and whether it applies and it can be easy to get stuck. I think academics can be particularly prone to this problem. We tend to think the thing that will solve everything is more information and more perspectives.

[smallcleanrat]

marshwiggle, leaving the first two examples you highlighted alone for now. Want to ask you to clarify what you are referring to in your last paragraph. Are you talking mostly about those two examples or are you including the rest of my examples as well?

1) cancel instead of standing someone up when you back out of plans (seems like pretty basic courtesy to me)
2) don't cut people off when they're talking especially if you directly asked for their input; the way he treated me all term, almost like I was invisible, in contrast to his warm and friendly he was with the other TA (who ended up screwing him over); I recognize it is in no way the professor's responsibility to care about my well-being, but the way he treated me in contrast to his favorite was really kicking me when I was down; he would chat with her, ask her how her research was going, if she needed a break from TA responsibilities to focus on grad school or take a rest, ask how this that or the other was going in her life; I had to wave my hands and shout sometimes in meetings just to give him info or ask questions so I could do my job; sometimes I had to send him the same email 3 or 4 times because he doesn't read them all (as in ever; had to get lucky and send the message during the time slot he actually decides to check his inbox); with all the difficulty I had getting his attention, it was like begging him for the favor of doing my TA work
3) even if you don't think it's fair to have expected my professor to give a rat's ass about me when I was suicidal, what do you think of him calling me a month later (after my TA contract had ended) to ask for a favor? And no greeting either; straight into "I may need your help dealing with a class issue. I'll phone you and explain the situation."
4) needing medical help in the lab can happen to anybody. slip and fall. Chemical spill. Asthma attack. Passing out from low blood sugar. Things happen. It's why there is a giant poster on the wall with first aid info and the number for emergency medical services. Or is it only reasonable to expect people to help normal people? The mental case can fend for herself. Maybe whatever it is will finish her off and we won't have to deal with her anymore...

Would you recognize any of these as falling below standards of common courtesy or basic consideration?

[marshwiggle]

marshwiggle, leaving the first two examples you highlighted alone for now. Want to ask you to clarify what you are referring to in your last paragraph. Are you talking mostly about those two examples or are you including the rest of my examples as well?

You're correct. Those two examples specifically seemed like they might be expecting more than is reasonable. Your other examples were more reasonable. (In particular, the behaviour of the profs you've mentioned seems kind of dense; responsible TAs don't grow on trees, so ignoring you while paying attention to the other one is not good.)

The main thing that caught my attention was the idea that many (most?) relationships you describe seem to have disappointed you significantly at some time. (And as I indicated, what I'm picturing as I read may be skewed, so someone who actually observes you in person might see the situation quite differently.)

[polly_mer]

You don't even bother to say you think I'm lying or deluded, you just ignore.

Those details are unimportant to the main point.

A frequent example I use is watching someone juggle chainsaws while riding a unicycle in heavy traffic.  We can discuss whether blue stars or red stripes are better decorations, but the main point is to get put of the street and put down the chainsaws.

I will refrain from engaging on this and all other threads since you'd rather have peace.

[smallcleanrat]

Peace is fine. The other threads haven't really been an issue. Just this one. But if you're sick of talking to me, ok.

Polly: Do something useful.
SCR: Relationship group.
Polly: Relationships groups aren't useful.
SCR: They have been useful to me in the past.
Polly: That's unimportant.

Polly: Your cat is proof you don't care about your boyfriend.
SCR: What? How?
Polly: Forget the cat, it's unimportant.

I think this is the most confusing online exchange I've ever had. I'm sorry we couldn't understand each other better on this.

Peace, polly_mer.

[smallcleanrat]

The main thing that caught my attention was the idea that many (most?) relationships you describe seem to have disappointed you significantly at some time. (And as I indicated, what I'm picturing as I read may be skewed, so someone who actually observes you in person might see the situation quite differently.)

That's fair. Social interactions are not my strongest skillset; some of this is just from having to unlearn a lot of things I was taught during my upbringing and replace them with  more functional ways to relate to people once I hit adulthood. Gained a lot of ground since then, but I think it's kind of like learning a language as an adult; much more effort than for a kid, and most likely never going to be as fluent.

People I have gotten close to said it takes a little while to "figure me out" but it's worth it once you get past that. They always have trouble being more specific, so I'm guessing it's subtle nonverbal things. Just think shy, awkward and nerdy. And since I've spent most of my time in environments with a lot of other shy, awkward, and nerdy people, I think some of it may be from other people's social inhibitions. "Oh, yeah. I did see you on the floor. I wondered if I should ask if you were okay but...um...I wasn't sure if maybe you wanted to be left alone. So...um...if I see you on the floor again, do you want me to...ask you if you need help?" Paraphrase from an actual conversation.

And some disappointments are just dashed hopes, not expectations. A friend moves to a different country, gets married, and has a family so we've drifted apart and barely correspond anymore. I can feel sad about getting crowded out of the friend's life by new priorities and losing the closeness we had without thinking the friend has done anything wrong by me.

[smallcleanrat]

Since getting married, I have set aside certain interests, types of food, etc. as they aren't popular with my spouse (and my spouse has made similar changes). 

Random Question: Why would your spouse not liking some types of food lead to you setting those foods aside? If you eat something spouse doesn't like, spouse doesn't have to eat it as well, do they? Is it like, you no longer go to certain types of restaurants because spouse wouldn't enjoy them? Or are they foods with strong aromas that would bother spouse if you had them at home?

[marshwiggle]

Since getting married, I have set aside certain interests, types of food, etc. as they aren't popular with my spouse (and my spouse has made similar changes). 

Random Question: Why would your spouse not liking some types of food lead to you setting those foods aside? If you eat something spouse doesn't like, spouse doesn't have to eat it as well, do they? Is it like, you no longer go to certain types of restaurants because spouse wouldn't enjoy them? Or are they foods with strong aromas that would bother spouse if you had them at home?

Avoiding restaurants would be one thing, but even at home doing things together mostly outweighs doing things individually. Finding things that both people enjoy sharing together is generally more rewarding than engaging in things independently. (There are exceptions, but that's the general principle.)

[smallcleanrat]

My apologies if this sounds insensitive, but the mental health challenges you have described suggest that giving you the help you need may require much more than other people are expected to provide in other similar relationships. So I'm not sure "common courtesy" applies in all of those cases.

The fact you bothered to worry at all that it might sound insensitive is a form of sensitivity. It's a harsh sentiment, but it's also a reality of having chronic health issues (don't think this is limited to mental health issues). I'm acutely aware that when I am unwell, I'm not the only one who deals with consequences. Not my first rodeo. When I'm well, I have good relationships with friends and coworkers and professors. When I'm unwell, relationships wither and die, and I have to start all over with building connections once I'm well again. Knowing that there are significant periods of time in which maintaining a relationship with me may become more trouble than it's worth is why I get suicidal in the first place.

People try to say that belief you are a burden is a distortion of reality caused by the depression. I don't buy this. I think burden, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder; it's a subjective judgment. If someone feels their relationship with you is more burdensome than valuable, then it is. I don't want to make this post too long with the details, so I'll just say I prioritize mitigating the extra stress or effort involved in having any kind of association with me. More often than not, I *turn down* offers for help because I don't want to add any extra strain to anyone else's life. Even with my parents and partner, who swear up and down they don't want me to suffer alone, that they'll be there for me no matter what...I know from experience, they can be entirely sincere without really being equipped to keep their promises.

These situations put pressure on professional relationships to provide much more than would normally be required.

About the two examples you identified:

The labmates: You bolded the sentence about the labmates pulling away from me socially, so I'm not sure if you think that was the expectation-related disappointment. It wasn't. I said in my post I don't expect people to force themselves to socialize with me if they are uncomfortable. I was talking specifically about making my exclusion a bit less obvious for *one* event on *one* day (so even if it would have been some effort beyond normal, I think being limited to a single day would preclude it from being *much* more effort than a normal labmate relationship). They'd excluded me from lunches before; it was this specific one that *really* hurt. It was an end-of-term social lunch on the last day of in-person labwork before we had to shutdown for COVID. They left me alone in an empty lab. I can think of about half a dozen ways they could have had their get together, left me out of it, but been more discreet about it. Making it so obvious I wasn't invited, wasn't part of the group anymore, on the cusp of an indeterminately long quarantine, seemed completely unnecessary and unkind. I don't believe they were intentionally being mean, but it did seem quite thoughtless. They were already ostracizing me for something I couldn't control (to an extreme degree; averting their eyes to avoid even being expected to say "hey" or exchange head nods when we passed each other in the hallway). For this one day they could have spared *some* thought for my feelings. If it's not unreasonable to expect someone to have a cup of coffee with you and provide friendly company when you have just received devastating news, is it so unreasonable to expect a little consideration on this single day?

It wasn't even *mental* health issues that started the exclusion.

There's another half to this story involving the *labmates'* expectations of *me*, which they never voiced (and I never would have guessed; some of them were real headscratchers). I only found out much later after two of my labmates (the ones I'd been closest to before everyone decided to pretend I was invisible) started interacting with me again and filled me in. When your coworkers are mostly in their early-to-mid-twenties, maybe it's to be expected they may also be grappling with the line between reasonable and unreasonable expectations.

The Professor: In the abstract sense of professor-student relationships I agree with your assessment about 90%. I agree that having to respond to a student's emergency situation by calling the appropriate services and informing them of the situation is not a day-to-day part of the job description. I agree that faculty should not be the standard go-to person for students in distress. I disagree that ignoring a student's emergency situation is not your problem when you know about it, but have no indication that anyone else does. My university frequently emails seminar schedules and guideline documents related to recognizing someone in distress and that the recommended best practices are for contacting the appropriate help. Expecting someone to report an emergency situation does expect them to potentially dealt with a stressor beyond what they normally handle. But if your involvement ends as soon as you've passed the problem on to the relevant people, I don't know that I would call it *much* more work. Even making the phone call, conveying the bare-bones information, and then completely washing your hands of the matter (no sticking around to make sure help arrives; no messaging the student later to ask if they're ok; you are done) is doing something. Is even this level of help an unfair expectation?

Is it only unreasonable if the help required is related to mental health? There are medical issues that can manifest as erratic behavior and be mistaken for mental illness: dysregulated blood sugar, some types of seizures, stroke, infection...is it still unfair to expect a professor to call for help if they witness this? Is it unfair to expect a professor to call for help if they see someone fall and break an ankle? If they see someone clutch their chest and collapse? These are all beyond the normal scope of a professor's professional role.

I posted about this scenario in another thread, and while people did say it would be understandable if the prof didn't act (lots of people just wouldn't really know what to do), it was still reasonable to expect that person to pick up the phone and alert the appropriate people of a student in crisis.

For this particular professor, there were reasons for feeling especially let down. For one, he was quite solicitous of the students and the other TA and even me to an extent. Twice he scrapped half of his lecture to give the students a forum to express their anxieties, frustrations, etc... related to COVID and to the protests. He would mention in TA meetings he was feeling the mental health effects of prolonged isolating; he would ask me and Other TA how we were holding up (but was often noticeably less interested in my answers than with hers). He even offered to make referrals (he is an MD) for some of the students who emailed us asking for extensions due to health issues; said he would be happy to help them get connected to good care. So...he kind of took it upon himself to go beyond normal requirements.

Late in the term, when he asked me how things were coming along with a few of the tasks he had asked me and other TA to "collaborate" on, I expressed frustration over the impossibility of collaborating with someone who hasn't answered a single one of my texts or emails in weeks. He chided me to try to be understanding and sympathetic, saying Other TA was having a very stressful term and may be going through hardships we didn't know about ("she's not responding much to me either, so don't take it personally"). Frankly, even though I know my mental state is NOT his responsibility, I don't think I would have deteriorated to the point I did if it hadn't been for his behavior.

I understand all the faculty were stressed past normal due to all the adaptations that had to be made last minute due to COVID. So, I can think of plenty of reasons that don't include malice to explain why I had such a hard time getting the most basic level of consideration. And Other TA had been a student in his classes previously; so if he's more interested in the wellbeing of someone he already knows than of someone he just met that term, I get it. But three meetings in a row he closed the chat on me when I was trying to say something (including the final lecture, when he opened the floor to the TAs to say any closing remarks and farewells to the students; I think you can guess how that went). I sent him some messages asking whether he had five minutes to chat sometime because there were some course-related questions I never got to ask him in the last meeting, and I also had just wanted to quickly say a proper goodbye. I've TA'ed for three other profs, and there was always a quick farewell, thanks for a good term-type chat at the end of the last meeting (1-2 minutes maximum); I was desperately looking forward to that little bit of acknowledgment and sense of closure. Heard nothing from him until a week later when he texted to tell me many students had taken incompletes so assignments would be coming in throughout summer and fall. He had never made answer keys for the homework problems he assigned and told me it would be awesome if I could either be available to grade or else send him the answer keys. I had made keys, but they were all in shorthand for my own use. To be usable to someone else, they would have to be rewritten almost from scratch. It was the last straw. I broke.

I guess, because of all this, I felt like I had earned a bit more than normal consideration from this specific individual.