Has Trump done anything good?

[polly_mer]

We're not losing poetry or art by having a results-focused president over a classy president.

We are losing the pretense that everything is fine if people would just be quiet and respectfully listen to their social betters who have money and the energy to play the classy game.

Trump has done many things wrong, but refusing to pretend that being classy is very important is not one of them.

[little bongo]

You're confusing "class" with pretention and putting on airs. Joe is pretty unpretentious--the guy said, "Shut up, man" during a debate (and he said it to the right person--also important).

And sure, nothing stopping me from taking a stab at creating art, or any of my artistic friends from doing so. But I would miss doing so where our leadership encourages, positively acknowledges, and supports such activity.

[jimbogumbo]

We're not losing poetry or art by having a results-focused president over a classy president.

We are losing the pretense that everything is fine if people would just be quiet and respectfully listen to their social betters who have money and the energy to play the classy game.

Trump has done many things wrong, but refusing to pretend that being classy is very important is not one of them.

You don't need money to be civil. He has encouraged an incredible decrease in social civility, and that is, in my opinion, a serious problem.

He has seriously damaged immigration policy, and hurt the economy as a result. His tariffs have likewise damaged farmers and other working class citizens.

He has elevated racial tensions, and damaged our relationships with allies to no good purpose.

He has lessened his followers' trust in medicine and science. If you don't recognize this you live in a bubble.

Finally, your list is actually paltry when it comes to results. Signing legislation (often in spite of his rhetoric), and a bunch of meaningless proclamations hardly outweighs his faults.

[mahagonny]

I really miss having a president with class and appreciation of art, but that doesn't guarantee effectiveness. The two best examples of cultured presidents, in my lifetime, were Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. See where it got them.
Donald Trump doesn't even pretend to be easygoing let alone genteel, but that's part of why he succeeds. Most politicians talk like attorneys who have been trained to say everything in the way that will be most palatable for an audience to hear. If you were going to create a person like that, you'd never end up with Donald Trump. He was the same rough guy, dressed like Rodney Dangerfield, campaigning in the midwest as on the coast. People sensed they knew what he was.
Contrast that with Michelle Obama, who wears nice dresses, photographs well, speaks lyrically about values and human dignity. While she certainly knows that Beyoncé sells pornography to your kids, she calls her a role model for her daughters anyway. Need to name positive female role models, strong-willed, well adjusted women? Easy. Dolly Parton. Hilary Hahn. The tennis playing sisters, Nancy Kerrigan. Beyoncé Knowles was a terrible choice. The Obamas played the class act act to perfection. Their way.

He [Trump] has elevated racial tensions, and damaged our relationships with allies to no good purpose.

I would worry about that too, and I'm afraid you're right, but he has had lots of help from the left.
Incidentally it turns out people believed race relations were better during the W. Bush years than during the Obama years, and it's not hard to see why. Democrats are not good for race relations because one of their methods for getting blacks out to vote is getting blacks angry at the system (whitey). Done by politicians, black white or other, who have prospered in the system by doing the normal things that help you prosper. Obama's comment about the Henry Louis Gates incident where he was arrested in his home was especially unfortunate. 'The police acted stupidly.' Incorrect. Gates copped an attitude instead of being cooperative. There are other examples where Obama could have done much better for race relations. So things are not always what they seem.

[marshwiggle]

Trump has convinced many people that he has and he can, which is the other big lesson he's reinforced for us: to paraphrase one of the president's heroes, you can fool some of the people all of the time. There's a brilliant editorial cartoon that features Trump exiting a rest room all in disarray, toilet paper everywhere, water dripping, and it's strongly implied that the smell is awful. And Trump yells from the exit, "Look what Joe did to the bathroom!" It's a perfect metaphor for Trump's legacy and accomplishments. And he is fooling many people--they believe what happened in the metaphorical bathroom is Biden's fault. If he fools enough people, he will be our president for another four years.

Making false assertions is not unique to Trump, or the right. Society has moved to where certain assertions are to be automatically taken at face value, and any attempt to question or verify them is seen as cruel and hateful. For instance

• A biogically male criminal sentenced to prison asserts "I am female", and then proceeds to rape several inmates in a women's prison. To point this out is "transphobic".
• "Believe all women" dictates that any woman who asserts that she has been sexually assaulted is to be believed. To ask for evidence, or to suggest that she be sanctioned if she is proven to have lied, is "misogynistic".
• An assertion that "all white people are racist" is accepted as true, and asking for evidence is "racist".

So for members of society, including academics and the media, to pretend that truth must be established by evidence is hypocritical in the extreme.

The best way to counter all the lies by people including Trump would be to apply rigourous standards of evidence across the board, so citizens would be skeptical about any claims unless and until they are supported by by clear, objective facts.

[writingprof]

He has lessened his followers' trust in medicine and science. If you don't recognize this you live in a bubble.

"Medicine" and "science" are not things that one trusts or mistrusts.  Doctors and scientists are.  I trust doctors and scientists right up until they hold leftist protesters to a different COVID-spreading standard than churchgoers, to name just one of innumerable examples.  Presumably you mistrust doctors who shill for tobacco companies, to name another. 

[jimbogumbo]

He has lessened his followers' trust in medicine and science. If you don't recognize this you live in a bubble.

"Medicine" and "science" are not things that one trusts or mistrusts.  Doctors and scientists are.  I trust doctors and scientists right up until they hold leftist protesters to a different COVID-spreading standard than churchgoers, to name just one of innumerable examples.  Presumably you mistrust doctors who shill for tobacco companies, to name another.

I'm going to disagree with your examples. I do have trust in medicine and science. I don't think the people you mention did that (the protest example), nor do I think shilling doctors and scientists are engaged in either medicine or science. They are engaged in prostitution.

[dismalist]

Look, I see writingprof's argument and I raise it:

Which science? Epidemiologists, who seem to think lives must be saved at any cost? So, shut down and shut off. Or, god forbid, those who might say let's protect the highly vulnerable and let everybody else play the odds if they wish to?

This trade off has been turned into a political contest, and rightly so, for we all have different endowments in life and different preferences..

Let me say the Dems want to turn off the economy, blame Trump, and win. Their supporters are not the ones working in essential industries taking risks to their health, but are continuing to collect their pay. Trump is appealing to those who have to work through this garbage to earn a living.

Apologies, reality wasn't meant to be nice.

[little bongo]

Trump has convinced many people that he has and he can, which is the other big lesson he's reinforced for us: to paraphrase one of the president's heroes, you can fool some of the people all of the time. There's a brilliant editorial cartoon that features Trump exiting a rest room all in disarray, toilet paper everywhere, water dripping, and it's strongly implied that the smell is awful. And Trump yells from the exit, "Look what Joe did to the bathroom!" It's a perfect metaphor for Trump's legacy and accomplishments. And he is fooling many people--they believe what happened in the metaphorical bathroom is Biden's fault. If he fools enough people, he will be our president for another four years.

Making false assertions is not unique to Trump, or the right. Society has moved to where certain assertions are to be automatically taken at face value, and any attempt to question or verify them is seen as cruel and hateful. For instance

• A biogically male criminal sentenced to prison asserts "I am female", and then proceeds to rape several inmates in a women's prison. To point this out is "transphobic".
• "Believe all women" dictates that any woman who asserts that she has been sexually assaulted is to be believed. To ask for evidence, or to suggest that she be sanctioned if she is proven to have lied, is "misogynistic".
• An assertion that "all white people are racist" is accepted as true, and asking for evidence is "racist".

So for members of society, including academics and the media, to pretend that truth must be established by evidence is hypocritical in the extreme.

The best way to counter all the lies by people including Trump would be to apply rigourous standards of evidence across the board, so citizens would be skeptical about any claims unless and until they are supported by by clear, objective facts.

Well, let's walk through this. Yes, people on both (all) sides lie. Got it.

Okay, there was a 45-minute break there, because i put myself to sleep responding to that statement. Good nap.

Next, we'll go through your three cherry-picked examples of things that nobody on this thread was talking about. I mean, jeez, man.  Well, i quoted from Jean-Paul Sartre about your tactics already, so let's move on. Now... being concerned about rape in a women's prison doesn't make one transphobic. Using such incidents to justify denying the rights of trans citizens is most certainly transphobic. And, here's a wild and naive idea--let's work on prisoner safety across the board maybe?

Being concerned about those accused (perhaps falsely) of rape or sexual assault does not make one misogynistic. Using those incidents to complain about the necessity of taking women seriously is most certainly misogynistic.

And finally... the racist statement? it's a way of looking at and reframing long-standing racist practices--which are real, by the way. We've been through this.

All right then, you sea lion, you. To paraphrase the great Douglas Adams, you should thank me for all the fish.

[financeguy]

Mocking Ford at the rally just before the confirmation hearing is definitely in the "good" column in my book. People need to stop taking these last minute hit jobs seriously. If you can't come forward to the police within the same decade or two and by doing so rob the accused of the ability to defend themselves, that's a you problem. If you disagree, do you believe there aren't any number of opposition research firms trying to "find" someone who will me too the right person at this given moment? You don't think there's one woman in a nation of 150 million of them that would say whatever it took if they thought Row was on the line? No one actually believed this nut job.

[marshwiggle]

Now... being concerned about rape in a women's prison doesn't make one transphobic. Using such incidents to justify denying the rights of trans citizens is most certainly transphobic. And, here's a wild and naive idea--let's work on prisoner safety across the board maybe?

Being concerned about those accused (perhaps falsely) of rape or sexual assault does not make one misogynistic. Using those incidents to complain about the necessity of taking women seriously is most certainly misogynistic.

This is the equivalent of the anti-maskers saying that requiring masks is just a prelude to "them" "taking away all our freedom". By implying that it's only a cover for something bigger and more nefarious, it doesn't have to be answered on its merits.

[writingprof]

He has lessened his followers' trust in medicine and science. If you don't recognize this you live in a bubble.

"Medicine" and "science" are not things that one trusts or mistrusts.  Doctors and scientists are.  I trust doctors and scientists right up until they hold leftist protesters to a different COVID-spreading standard than churchgoers, to name just one of innumerable examples.  Presumably you mistrust doctors who shill for tobacco companies, to name another.

I'm going to disagree with your examples. I do have trust in medicine and science. I don't think the people you mention did that (the protest example), nor do I think shilling doctors and scientists are engaged in either medicine or science. They are engaged in prostitution.

So, basically, you "trust science" while simultaneously asserting that the activity of scientists with whom you disagree is "not science."  Funny, that's exactly my position.

[jimbogumbo]

He has lessened his followers' trust in medicine and science. If you don't recognize this you live in a bubble.

"Medicine" and "science" are not things that one trusts or mistrusts.  Doctors and scientists are.  I trust doctors and scientists right up until they hold leftist protesters to a different COVID-spreading standard than churchgoers, to name just one of innumerable examples.  Presumably you mistrust doctors who shill for tobacco companies, to name another.

I'm going to disagree with your examples. I do have trust in medicine and science. I don't think the people you mention did that (the protest example), nor do I think shilling doctors and scientists are engaged in either medicine or science. They are engaged in prostitution.

So, basically, you "trust science" while simultaneously asserting that the activity of scientists with whom you disagree is "not science."  Funny, that's exactly my position.

Not exactly funny. It is correct that we agree. You seem surprised. I thought we were just nit-picking phrasing. The kind of thing I do that my wife hates while she constantly does it to me (while not admitting it).

[jimbogumbo]

Look, I see writingprof's argument and I raise it:

Which science? Epidemiologists, who seem to think lives must be saved at any cost? So, shut down and shut off. Or, god forbid, those who might say let's protect the highly vulnerable and let everybody else play the odds if they wish to?

This trade off has been turned into a political contest, and rightly so, for we all have different endowments in life and different preferences..

Let me say the Dems want to turn off the economy, blame Trump, and win. Their supporters are not the ones working in essential industries taking risks to their health, but are continuing to collect their pay. Trump is appealing to those who have to work through this garbage to earn a living.

Apologies, reality wasn't meant to be nice.

Your example again conflates science with public policy. I'm not arguing that there have to be trade offs when it comes to policy. There always are. What I'm unhappy with is that the President openly and constantly subverts the results of medicine and science to our detriment.

You also seem to think that when I say "President Trump" I am saying "Republicans", which is not the case. It is true that I will vote a straight ticket for the first time in my life, but it is not a condemnation of Republicans in general. While I have issues with many Republican policies I have in fact never written "Republicans want to..." or "Democrats want to...".  It is because all the elected Republicans in my state have expressed support for this President. Period.

[polly_mer]

We're not losing poetry or art by having a results-focused president over a classy president.

We are losing the pretense that everything is fine if people would just be quiet and respectfully listen to their social betters who have money and the energy to play the classy game.

Trump has done many things wrong, but refusing to pretend that being classy is very important is not one of them.

You don't need money to be civil. He has encouraged an incredible decrease in social civility, and that is, in my opinion, a serious problem.

He has seriously damaged immigration policy, and hurt the economy as a result. His tariffs have likewise damaged farmers and other working class citizens.

He has elevated racial tensions, and damaged our relationships with allies to no good purpose.

He has lessened his followers' trust in medicine and science. If you don't recognize this you live in a bubble.

Finally, your list is actually paltry when it comes to results. Signing legislation (often in spite of his rhetoric), and a bunch of meaningless proclamations hardly outweighs his faults.

Most people don't really trust medicine and science when it conflicts with what they want to do.  If everyone really believed, then everyone would exercise regularly and eat as nutritious a diet as their budget allows.

Most people want civil as long as they like the current situation and then quickly argue that calls for civility silence the necessary voices for change when they want change.

Many people also insist that critical thinking is really important, but do not regularly follow a large range of credible enough sources so that they could discover new information that will change their mind.  Why not?  Well, because gathering enough information from all sides is actually hard and time consuming with often unpleasant results when the reality is messy.  It's much easier to make a decision, stick to a bubble of information that will support that decision, and discard any conflicting information that happens to cross the bubble boundary.