college as a Vegas trip: The Atlantic article

[polly_mer]

People aren't paying primarily for teaching; people are paying for the experience, like going to Vegas: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/10/college-was-never-about-education/616777/

[writingprof]

Speaking for myself, I found the experience of college to be hugely valuable and worth every penny.  I can't remember much of what I learned, but I developed some habits of mind that have served me extraordinarily well in the decades since I graduated. 

I suspect that many of us could tell a similar story.  The problem is that the "product" I'm describing isn't really needed by the vast majority of the population.

[marshwiggle]

People aren't paying primarily for teaching; people are paying for the experience, like going to Vegas: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/10/college-was-never-about-education/616777/

I really wish there was some kind of survey of this comparing the US to other countries. Specifically, since they talk about Harvard copying Oxbridge, and everyone one else copying them, it would be interesting to see results from the UK.

My guess is the US has basically jumped the shark on the Oxbridge model.

[polly_mer]

I learned quite a lot in college that I use now in my job and in all my previous professional jobs.  However, almost none of that is general education courses unrelated to my major; almost everything I use beyond basic literacy is a direct result of those college courses in chemistry, physics, engineering, and math.

However, I spent only one semester as a student in a dorm with my primary responsibility being coursework.  I was a married commuter for the majority of my college time with most of my friends coming from activities that were unrelated to college.  About half of my "college friends" don't have college degrees and were not taking courses while I was a student.

Thus, I may have missed out on the college experience, but my college education was worth every penny that was paid on my behalf.

[marshwiggle]

Thus, I may have missed out on the college experience, but my college education was worth every penny that was paid on my behalf.

The very fact that the "college education" is not automatically the major part of the "college experience" is bizarre. I made friends and had lots of good non-academic experiences, but the education has much more explicitly affected the course of my life than any of those other experiences. If someone meets their life partner at university, that would certainly be a more profound effect, but even that is probably somewhat a reflection of the academic character of the institution (programs offered, students they attract, etc.). The existence of a climbing wall probably isn't the clincher.

[polly_mer]

The networking experience is relevant for many people, especially for a name-brand college.  The alumni network can be very important for getting a professional-class job that doesn't depend on having a specific expertise.

I keep up with many of my friends from when I was in college.  We could have stayed in that town, taken a bills-paying job, and led an OK lower-middle-class life.  But I kept moving us for better career opportunities and thus we aren't stuck in a dying town with few options if the one major employer goes under.

[kaysixteen]

OK, but getting those networking connections at that elite college is still very much dependent on having the sort of family status that helps greatly in getting these contacts, being accepted into the social groups/ set., etc., in the first place.

[dismalist]

Alas, people, reality strikes: A couple of very clever people compared those who were accepted at so-called elite colleges and attended with those who were accepted and attended someplace else. First job, the elitists earned more. Second job, difference = zero! The person matters, not the college.

All this elite college stuff  is selection bull shit.

[Stockmann]

Thus, I may have missed out on the college experience, but my college education was worth every penny that was paid on my behalf.

The very fact that the "college education" is not automatically the major part of the "college experience" is bizarre. I made friends and had lots of good non-academic experiences, but the education has much more explicitly affected the course of my life than any of those other experiences. If someone meets their life partner at university, that would certainly be a more profound effect, but even that is probably somewhat a reflection of the academic character of the institution (programs offered, students they attract, etc.). The existence of a climbing wall probably isn't the clincher.

I think the problem is not so much the "college experience" - for example, for trad age students living away from their parents and/or home region for the first time, that in itself can be a pretty important experience with a profound effect, in terms of maturity, etc. The bigger problem I think is the Rolexification of the "college experience" - from pool tables and buffet meals in the dorms to the proverbial climbing wall, because this drives costs (and, to remain profitable, price) through the roof. In fact, the Rolexification kind of goes against the college experience as contributing to maturity - buffet meals with extensive choice in the dorms means students don't have to know the rudiments of cooking or grocery shopping, for example. Having all sorts of amenities bundled up together in dorm costs mean less experience with actual budgeting, incl. for entertainment. It might not matter for the children of the super rich, who are never going to need to cook if they don't want to and so on, but further down the pecking order the combo of a big price tag and potentially weaker life skills isn't exactly optimal.

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

I wonder if the author may be extrapolating his own experience?
He has done his [humanities] undergrad at University of Southern California of the 2019 admissions scandal fame. Many passages in the article appear to reflect the motivation of the people involved in the scandal (and hint at not-exactly-cheap activities involved in this "rite of passage").

Side note: Statement that "When Western universities got their start in medieval Europe, they were integrated into major cities, such as Paris, Berlin, and Milan. England was an exception." is not true on many levels.

[polly_mer]

Alas, people, reality strikes: A couple of very clever people compared those who were accepted at so-called elite colleges and attended with those who were accepted and attended someplace else. First job, the elitists earned more. Second job, difference = zero! The person matters, not the college.

That's only true for the people who could have gone to a better place (i.e., already passed the filters of a solid academic preparation and evidence of middle-class acceptability) and went to an adequate place to get a perfectly fine education with a perfectly fine alumni network.

Focusing on the people who could go elsewhere ignores the large fraction of people who graduated from some college somewhere, took a crappy first job that didn't require a college education, and are still underemployed 10 years later: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/05/23/college-graduates-whose-first-job-doesnt-require-bachelors-degree-often-stay


For people who have the real education and solid social capital, being the person matters.  For those who really needed college to get a leg up, the college matters.

[jimbogumbo]

Ima Mathematics major, BS, MS, Ph.D., and I absolutely benefited from my Psychology, Political Science and two History (one focused on the Weimar Republic) classes. I studied quite a bit of Cognitive Psychology in later work, and really wish I'd taken Philosophy courses. And, I'll have to say the Religion course (studied the Gospel of John and learned a bunch about Gnostics) was terrific.

I was a working commuter for three years, and lived on campus Senior year. Got to sing the entire Messiah, and played tennis. All that, and learned to play bridge. It was entirely worth it.

[polly_mer]

OK, but getting those networking connections at that elite college is still very much dependent on having the sort of family status that helps greatly in getting these contacts, being accepted into the social groups/ set., etc., in the first place.

The research indicates that people who can't/won't/don't do the networking at the elite places are better off at the very good places where networking is new for everyone instead of already established by virtue of prior family status. 

Much of the research and discussion on the first-generation problems at elite places are exactly the problem of not having the resources to do the standard-for-that-place activities like study abroad or fabulous break trips.  The solutions suggested focus on ensuring resources for things like study abroad, helping students get the paid internships/coops through the alumni network, and supporting socialization that doesn't require extra money (e.g., the on-campus clubs where money can be allocated to the clubs instead of via dues collected from each student).

[mythbuster]

    For me the aspect that this article misses is the role that college plays as a transition to adulthood. The US lost a major mechanism for this transition when we stopped requiring military service. Residential college was therefore the one remaining place where you could learn to be an independent adult in a relatively controlled, low risk setting. Getting an F in a course is much lower risk than getting fired from your job.
   We see in the multitude of articles the complaints by employers about the lack of maturity in recent college grads. I wonder if this has much to do with the Disney-ification of the elite college experience.
   I think on my own experience and how much I grew and matured after even one semester away from home. This was not growth in the traditional education sense, but growth as a person. Attending the local commuter campus would not at all have provided those types of experiences. I personally feel that his type of maturation from meeting people from outside your immediate area/culture/race etc. and the added expectations for independent work are well worth some cost.
     But here we get into the part of education that is outside the Venn diagram of job training. Call it personal edification, possibly. When I attended college, the well rounded model was in full force. Now, anything outside that overlapping portion of education and job training is actively disdained by many.

[ciao_yall]

    For me the aspect that this article misses is the role that college plays as a transition to adulthood. The US lost a major mechanism for this transition when we stopped requiring military service. Residential college was therefore the one remaining place where you could learn to be an independent adult in a relatively controlled, low risk setting. Getting an F in a course is much lower risk than getting fired from your job.
   We see in the multitude of articles the complaints by employers about the lack of maturity in recent college grads. I wonder if this has much to do with the Disney-ification of the elite college experience.
   I think on my own experience and how much I grew and matured after even one semester away from home. This was not growth in the traditional education sense, but growth as a person. Attending the local commuter campus would not at all have provided those types of experiences. I personally feel that his type of maturation from meeting people from outside your immediate area/culture/race etc. and the added expectations for independent work are well worth some cost.
     But here we get into the part of education that is outside the Venn diagram of job training. Call it personal edification, possibly. When I attended college, the well rounded model was in full force. Now, anything outside that overlapping portion of education and job training is actively disdained by many.

Has the USA ever required military service?