Personal Pronouns / First Names

[JFlanders]

Would it make sense just to transition, society-wide, to a system where we use proper names instead of personal pronouns? 

Once we have >1 set of pronouns, any attempt to assign an individual to one or the other set is going to be implicitly placing this person into a collectively-defined social category.  I'm sympathetic to the notion that having someone else place you in a big box with a label involves a kind of violence to the unique contours of your personal experience and to your own right to self-definition.  But unless we're moving to a system where there are now just 3 (or 4, or 5) fixed, collectively-defined genders, then it seems like adding another 1, 2 or 3 sets of pronouns will eventually just reproduce the original problems with the binary system.   I may know that I'm not a "he" or a "she", but why should I have to publicly profess that therefore I am a "xhe", when my experience of gender may not at all match the other "xhe"s in this class?  Why shouldn't I equally resent getting labelled with my professor's stereotypical notions of "xhe"s, based on other "xhes" they know?   

Seems easier just to go with the grammatical form we already have for expressing unique identity:  "Alice, would you pass Bob's paper to Bob?  Bob, do you have suggestions for Alice to improve Alice's draft?"  Doesn't solve the issue of navigating mid-semester name changes, but it eliminates the red-in-green-font problem.

[marshwiggle]

I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.

Dear Marshwiggle,

Sorry but I find your argument kind of silly.  College is not some 1-to-1 simulacrum of real life, it is its own special and specific environment, with its own social rules and concepts.  Like, imagine if I was like "Okay Marshwiggle, happy to interact with you on this forum, but I demand to use your real name.  If I can't call you Professor Joe Schmo from Northeast Kingdom University, @jschmo@neku.edu, I'm not going to interact...I refuse the name Marshwiggle because it's not your legal name."  Does that make sense in the context of this forum?  No way!  You wouldn't feel safe!  Why should the classroom be different?  College students are learning who they are in a safe place...why should we demand the priviledge to reinforce the dominant cultural form that exists beyond those safe walls?

That analogy doesn't work; the fora here are created to be pseudonymous; anyone who voluntarily joins knows that people are not required to use their real names. Most people also know that if they enter some sort of legal contract with an individual or organization that the way they identify themselves is not entirely arbitrary, and cannot be changed on a whim.

There are several "requirements" that institutions regularly impose on students as a part of due diligence to ensure that a degree reflects real accomplishment on the part of the student, such as:

• student ID cards with  photo
• presentation of ID card at exams
• use of student ID number on assignments and/or exams

If these requirements make students feel "unsafe", would it make sense to allow a student to write an exam without producing an ID card, without recording an ID number, and using a name different from the one on the course registration? Should this be allowed for all students?

As human beings go through life, they are constantly adjusting how they present themselves to others in order to influence how they are perceived. However, a healthy psyche requires that a person integrate the past with the present, instead of trying to hide the past or pretend it doesn't exist. If a person changes their legal name before registering for university, then their new name is all that they need to acknowledge. Four years is hardly a long time for a person to acknowledge the same identity.

[Caracal]

While a gender identity is important to the individual, whether it's a he or she who just pointed out that we need to use Maxwell's equations to solve this problem is irrelevant to the functioning of the class.  A good contribution to the discussion connecting this week's reading and last week's reading by individual X is the same whether individual X is wearing a frilly skirt with a full beard or cargo pants with a fabulous tiara.  Thus, for the convenience of discussions in class, even learning people's names can be irrelevant if everyone sits in assigned seating so today's contribution boxes can be marked appropriately and the legal names go on every submitted written assignment.

I can think of students who've used middle names, nicknames based on how many family members had the name before them, (once even a Quinn!) names totally unrelated to their birth name they chose (I assume) because they preferred something english speakers wouldn't mangle, broey appellations (Doke) and even meteorological phenomena. None of this has ever caused me anything more than momentary confusion. I'm not the social security office. As long as you turn something in with the same name every time and make sure I can identify it based on the roll, there's no problem.

[Caracal]

I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.

There's this imaginary scenario here where a student marches into your office and demands you use a particular pronoun and call them Greatlover." The one experience I've had with this in the classroom was a student who wrote me before the start of the semester to politely ask that I call her by a different name than the one that might be in the system and refer to her as she if I used pronouns. The student said they'd be happy to talk to me if there were any issues.

There was no attempt to impose ideology, she wasn't trying to get me to take some position about gender and identity. It was just a basic, polite request that I was perfectly happy to fulfill. It actually ensured that I did remember the student's name.

It is also worth remembering that this isn't all just about preferred identity. Rates of violence against trans people is really high and drawing attention to someone by using a pronoun that might not fit with their presentation could expose them to attacks.

[Conjugate]

I can think of students who've used middle names, nicknames based on how many family members had the name before them, (once even a Quinn!) names totally unrelated to their birth name they chose (I assume) because they preferred something english speakers wouldn't mangle, broey appellations (Doke) and even meteorological phenomena. None of thi s has ever caused me anything more than momentary confusion. I'm not the social security office. As long as you turn something in with the same name every time and make sure I can identify it based on the roll, there's no problem.

It's policy at my institution to respect students' preferences about these things.  So, first day of classes, I pass around a roster and ask students to put by their roster name the name by which they want me to call them.  That way, Clarence W. Smith can tell me he'd prefer to be called "Bill," and so forth.

Also, I've been asked by a student who was on my roster as "Denise" (not the real name) to take attendance and refer to them in class as "Dan" because they were in the process of changing gender, but couldn't get parental permission for a legal name change.  I of course agreed, because I try to be supportive rather than judgmental of my students.

That said, if police came to my room asking for "Denise," I would be legally obligated to say, "Sure," and ask Dan to step outside. I don't know that there's a good way to handle that. Luckily, it has never arisen (and the few times police do show and ask for a student, that student has usually not been there.  I mean, my students aren't dumb).

[marshwiggle]

I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.

There's this imaginary scenario here where a student marches into your office and demands you use a particular pronoun and call them Greatlover."

As long as you're not required to do so, then that scenario isn't a problem.

The one experience I've had with this in the classroom was a student who wrote me before the start of the semester to politely ask that I call her by a different name than the one that might be in the system and refer to her as she if I used pronouns. The student said they'd be happy to talk to me if there were any issues.

There was no attempt to impose ideology, she wasn't trying to get me to take some position about gender and identity. It was just a basic, polite request that I was perfectly happy to fulfill. It actually ensured that I did remember the student's name.

It is also worth remembering that this isn't all just about preferred identity. Rates of violence against trans people is really high and drawing attention to someone by using a pronoun that might not fit with their presentation could expose them to attacks.

Of the two (possibly) trans students I've been aware of, one had been in several of my labs as "Bob", and was registered as "Bob", but signed everything as "Alice" in my course. Many of the students in the course would have been in many of the previous (and small) courses with "Bob". "Alice" had no obvious changes in physical appearance from "Bob".
Given all of that, the former identity of "Bob" is a ridiculously poorly kept secret, so it's hard to see how pronoun use is going to affect that.

[Caracal]

I actually do it, but that a courtesy; it would not be unprofessional to address people by their legal names under which they are registered. Suggesting that people ought to be morally (or even worse, legally) compelled to use whatever a person chooses is ridiculous.

There's this imaginary scenario here where a student marches into your office and demands you use a particular pronoun and call them Greatlover."

As long as you're not required to do so, then that scenario isn't a problem.

The one experience I've had with this in the classroom was a student who wrote me before the start of the semester to politely ask that I call her by a different name than the one that might be in the system and refer to her as she if I used pronouns. The student said they'd be happy to talk to me if there were any issues.

There was no attempt to impose ideology, she wasn't trying to get me to take some position about gender and identity. It was just a basic, polite request that I was perfectly happy to fulfill. It actually ensured that I did remember the student's name.

It is also worth remembering that this isn't all just about preferred identity. Rates of violence against trans people is really high and drawing attention to someone by using a pronoun that might not fit with their presentation could expose them to attacks.

Of the two (possibly) trans students I've been aware of, one had been in several of my labs as "Bob", and was registered as "Bob", but signed everything as "Alice" in my course. Many of the students in the course would have been in many of the previous (and small) courses with "Bob". "Alice" had no obvious changes in physical appearance from "Bob".
Given all of that, the former identity of "Bob" is a ridiculously poorly kept secret, so it's hard to see how pronoun use is going to affect that.

Right, but this is actually a good example of why you don't need to get into these things. You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.

[marshwiggle]

You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.

So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.

[downer]

You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.

So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.

You don't have to endorse a person's identification in calling them whatever name they want to be called. You may have theoretical reasons for believing that the person must be mistaken about their own self-identification. You might even think they are delusional. Students are mistaken about all sorts of things, but it's only our job to point out the mistakes relevant to the course material.

[revert79]

You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.

So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.

You don't have to endorse a person's identification in calling them whatever name they want to be called. You may have theoretical reasons for believing that the person must be mistaken about their own self-identification. You might even think they are delusional. Students are mistaken about all sorts of things, but it's only our job to point out the mistakes relevant to the course material.

I'm totally with Downer here.  Who cares, seriously?  Don't we want to support these students within the range of what we can do as instructors and mentors?  Rachel D was profiteering from her tricky self-presentation, not quietly and respectfully asking to be called "they" or "Bob".  Also, in terms of racial identification differences across cultures, check out the example of Brazil.  Historically, one's understanding of one's own race is a much more fluid construct than it is in the United States, where I live.  This is true across a spectrum of "biological" race origins.  Just a totally different cultural attitude.  Our students are the future; they can usher in a totally different and more flexible culture if we don't antagonize them with legal trivialities and ID number paranoia!  You are allowed to have skeptical and ungenerous thoughts; of course!  But you have the social responsibility, as well as the intellectual respect contract between student and teacher, to take people at their word when they want to be called "they", "Bob", or "Alice".

Allahu Akbar, let the trans, non-binary, and gender-fluid humans of America lead the way to a cooler and more open-minded future!  Your contribution of training yourself to call them by the pronouns and names that jive with their understanding of self is a much-appreciated contribution to future freedoms in the cultural, political, artistic, and intellectual life we can all hope to experience and benefit from!  After all, aren't you yourself weird and unique in some ways?  And doesn't that make you a more excellent human being?

Sorry to make this so ideological--my main objective with the first post was to generate some good tips for actually remembering the pronouns and names in the first place.  Which, we did get some awesome tips!

[marshwiggle]

Allahu Akbar, let the trans, non-binary, and gender-fluid humans of America lead the way to a cooler and more open-minded future!  Your contribution of training yourself to call them by the pronouns and names that jive with their understanding of self is a much-appreciated contribution to future freedoms in the cultural, political, artistic, and intellectual life we can all hope to experience and benefit from!  After all, aren't you yourself weird and unique in some ways?  And doesn't that make you a more excellent human being?

This illustrates the heart of the problem. The problem with the emphasis on "gender identity" is that is implies that somehow a "correct" identification of a person's gender avoids any misconceptions of who they are as a person. If "gender" includes basically everything about a person, then there are currently about 7 billion genders in the world. The point of having any sort of pronoun is to have some sort of broad categorization; the number of categories is only useful if most people understand what they mean. So, the more categories, the less useful they are since the terms will be unfamiliar.

Biological sex has relevance for medicine. It does not indicate whether a person like sports, or shopping for clothes, or an infinite number of things, even though there are some probabilities for those related to sex.  For a long time it has been understood to not even guarantee sexual preference. Replacing "sex" by "gender" and then creating multiple genders is a step backwards because it assumes that more airtight categorizations can be used which will not be misunderstood. This is nonsense. The only way any individual can be clearly understood is through the long process of getting to know that person. There are no shortcuts, and creating extra pronouns won't help, while it may give  the illusion of doing so.

[Caracal]

You can just say, oh, no problem, I'll call you Alice. Or you can enter into a series of speculations about the student and their gender and appearance. You don't know the factors that might play into the decision and a request for you to use a particular name isn't forcing you to examine them.

So how is this different than the Rachel Dolezal case where she "identified" as black? Many of the same people who would require the use of peoples' self-chosen pronouns seem to deny her ability to self-identify her race, despite the fact that "race" has much less basis in science than "sex", and thus is a much more ambiguous term to begin with.

You don't have to endorse a person's identification in calling them whatever name they want to be called. You may have theoretical reasons for believing that the person must be mistaken about their own self-identification. You might even think they are delusional. Students are mistaken about all sorts of things, but it's only our job to point out the mistakes relevant to the course material.

Yes. You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be. I can argue with you about the larger questions and I do think you're wrong in a whole bunch of ways, but that isn't really the point. It isn't hard to call someone by the name they prefer and it shows a lack of respect to not do so. As you said, its a courtesy.  I really do think the pronoun thing is sort of a non issue in a classroom setting. It always feels a bit odd to me to say "he or she or they" when the person is standing there looking at me. It feels impersonal.

[ciao_yall]

Allahu Akbar, let the trans, non-binary, and gender-fluid humans of America lead the way to a cooler and more open-minded future!  Your contribution of training yourself to call them by the pronouns and names that jive with their understanding of self is a much-appreciated contribution to future freedoms in the cultural, political, artistic, and intellectual life we can all hope to experience and benefit from!  After all, aren't you yourself weird and unique in some ways?  And doesn't that make you a more excellent human being?

This illustrates the heart of the problem. The problem with the emphasis on "gender identity" is that is implies that somehow a "correct" identification of a person's gender avoids any misconceptions of who they are as a person. If "gender" includes basically everything about a person, then there are currently about 7 billion genders in the world. The point of having any sort of pronoun is to have some sort of broad categorization; the number of categories is only useful if most people understand what they mean. So, the more categories, the less useful they are since the terms will be unfamiliar.

Biological sex has relevance for medicine. It does not indicate whether a person like sports, or shopping for clothes, or an infinite number of things, even though there are some probabilities for those related to sex.  For a long time it has been understood to not even guarantee sexual preference. Replacing "sex" by "gender" and then creating multiple genders is a step backwards because it assumes that more airtight categorizations can be used which will not be misunderstood. This is nonsense. The only way any individual can be clearly understood is through the long process of getting to know that person. There are no shortcuts, and creating extra pronouns won't help, while it may give  the illusion of doing so.

Well, if calling someone she/he/they when you would rather call that person he/they/she is enough to break your crayons then, pal, you have bigger problems than any of us can solve.

[downer]

There are all sorts of reasons to be dubious about the identities that students present in class. Racial, ethnic and gender identities are big social questions for sure. Personally, I don't want 1000 flowers to bloom. I don't want to celebrate their individuality most of the time. A lot of the time I don't even like their stupid names. But I don't go on about it. I just get on with the job, and call them something approximating to what they want to be called. Is there any good alternative to doing that? I don't think so.

[marshwiggle]

There are all sorts of reasons to be dubious about the identities that students present in class. Racial, ethnic and gender identities are big social questions for sure. Personally, I don't want 1000 flowers to bloom. I don't want to celebrate their individuality most of the time. A lot of the time I don't even like their stupid names. But I don't go on about it. I just get on with the job, and call them something approximating to what they want to be called. Is there any good alternative to doing that? I don't think so.

There are two:
One was mentioned earlier in this thread:

Would it make sense just to transition, society-wide, to a system where we use proper names instead of personal pronouns? 

...

Seems easier just to go with the grammatical form we already have for expressing unique identity:  "Alice, would you pass Bob's paper to Bob?  Bob, do you have suggestions for Alice to improve Alice's draft?"  Doesn't solve the issue of navigating mid-semester name changes, but it eliminates the red-in-green-font problem.

The other is to define a single non-gender-specific third person singular pronoun (such as "they") which will be used for everyone.

Both of those are non-discriminatory and don't contribute to exploding snowflakiness.