Personal Pronouns / First Names

[hungry_ghost]

I have at least 1 - 2 gender non-conforming students per semester.

I have messed up with pronouns once, but this is because I don't usually use pronouns. I typically refer to students by name.

Like another poster upthread, I have a hard time adjusting or changing once I learn someone's name. This is not for want of effort on my part. Fortunately I have never had a student change names midsemester.

My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?

[youllneverwalkalone]

I have at least 1 - 2 gender non-conforming students per semester.

I have messed up with pronouns once, but this is because I don't usually use pronouns. I typically refer to students by name.

Like another poster upthread, I have a hard time adjusting or changing once I learn someone's name. This is not for want of effort on my part. Fortunately I have never had a student change names midsemester.

My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?

Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.

[marshwiggle]

My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?

Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.

In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)

[hungry_ghost]

My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?

Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.

In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)

Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.

[revert79]

My question: How often do we use pronouns to refer to students in class?

Pretty rarely afaic, which is another thing that makes me puzzle over how this is apparently such a big deal.

In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)

Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.

Again, I think I should mention that the situation is different in visual art classes.  We rely on critiques of student work, involving a group of students and at least one faculty member, in order to provide diverse and relevant feedback (as well as assessment).  In situations like this, which take place numerous times for each student during the course of each class, a piece or a body of work made by an individual is hung up and discussed by the group.  Twice a semester, the critiques involve the entire painting department, and each student's work is discussed in depth for about 40 minutes.  In the critique, it is hard or impossible to avoid pronouns, on the part of both faculty and students.  The bit that is bolded in the above quote is exactly what I have to do all the time.  In painting and drawing classes, the number of students is usually capped at 15 or 20, so it's not a huge group;  the nature of the critique environment makes the culture of the classroom reflective and responsive, but also unintentionally personal...which can be uncomfortable, and is exacerbated by student work that is autobiographical in nature.  As much as I try to approach my students with objective neutrality and critical distance, it is not entirely possible given the environment and the expectations.

But as someone who has attended classes in other disciplines (as a student, that is), I see how the issue of pronouns can be a confusing problem to bring up.  It just doesn't make sense in certain other contexts, in which you never actually have to refer to your students in this way.  I think there are probably many academic instances, though, when student work is discussed or critiqued by a group, and in those instances it is important to have both the name and the pronoun correct for each student.  I have seen plenty of hurt feelings come from slip-ups in critiques, when the discussion--which focuses on an individual--is both high-stakes and public.

[Caracal]

In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)

Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.
[/quote]

Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right. In some cases, a student might not want everyone to know they've transitioned and it could even be a safety issue unfortunately. More to the point, if a student would like people to call them by a certain name and use certain pronouns, if you aren't doing that to others, you aren't helping with that. All that said, if a student decides to change pronouns in the middle of the semester, they probably know it might be confusing and people might slip sometimes. As long as you're graceful about it, and don't either act like this is some big imposition or a huge deal that you've messed it up, it should be fine.

[marshwiggle]

In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)

Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.

Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right. In some cases, a student might not want everyone to know they've transitioned and it could even be a safety issue unfortunately. More to the point, if a student would like people to call them by a certain name and use certain pronouns, if you aren't doing that to others, you aren't helping with that.

Would that still be true if you avoided using pronouns for anyone?

[hungry_ghost]

In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)

The above quotation was misattributed to me. I said this:

Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.

revert79, your description of visual art critiques makes sense.

Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right.

Of course I try to get it right. My point was, I don't have many opportunities to practice getting it right, nor for that matter, to get it wrong.

[Caracal]

In fact, it's only when talking about one student to another student in the presence of the first student that it's going to matter. (If the first student isn't present, they are unlikely to be aware of what pronoun was used, if any. If a student refers to me by an incorrect pronoun in a conversation that I'm not a part of, I can't imagine why that would bother me. If it were done on purpose as part of some derogatory comment, then the comment would be the thing I'd potentially care about.)

Thank you, so it's not just me who is puzzled about this.

Well, I think there are a few reasons you'd want to try to get it right. In some cases, a student might not want everyone to know they've transitioned and it could even be a safety issue unfortunately. More to the point, if a student would like people to call them by a certain name and use certain pronouns, if you aren't doing that to others, you aren't helping with that.

Would that still be true if you avoided using pronouns for anyone?

No, I don't think so, you aren't in charge of broadcasting it.

[xerprofrn]

Thanks for the suggestion! Can I ask what kind of cards you use to create tent cards?

I just use cardstock--really thick paper--folded in half.

[xerprofrn]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful.  Just call people what they want to be called.  What problem is that for you, except an ideological one?  Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?

[Juvenal]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful.  Just call people what they want to be called.  What problem is that for you, except an ideological one?  Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?

Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable.  But where does one stop?  If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce?  The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find.  Better to go with what they registered as, if it all otherwise seems strange?  If it seems nothing special, "Donald" vs. "Don" vs. "Donny"?  Why not?

[marshwiggle]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful.  Just call people what they want to be called.  What problem is that for you, except an ideological one?  Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?

Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable.  But where does one stop?  If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce?  The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find.  Better to go with what they registered as, if it all otherwise seems strange?  If it seems nothing special, "Donald" vs. "Don" vs. "Donny"?  Why not?

And here's why it's not purely theoretical:

The Ontario Human Rights Commission has stated, in the context of equivalent provisions in the Ontario Human Rights Code, that "refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity ... will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education."

Lord Don will get you eventually.

[Juvenal]

Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable.  But where does one stop?  If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce?  The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find.  Better to go with what they registered as, if it all otherwise seems strange?  If it seems nothing special, "Donald" vs. "Don" vs. "Donny"?  Why not?

And here's why it's not purely theoretical:

The Ontario Human Rights Commission has stated, in the context of equivalent provisions in the Ontario Human Rights Code, that "refusing to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and a personal pronoun that matches their gender identity ... will likely be discrimination when it takes place in a social area covered by the Code, including employment, housing and services like education."

Lord Don will get you eventually.

"North of the border, up Canada way..."

[ergative]

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.

It's not unprofessional to use the name and sex that are listed in the institution's personal information for the student. That, in fact, is being explicitly professional.

So, a student who wants to be called "Katie" when the institution has her legal name as "Kathleen" may not be unprofessional, but it is certainly disrespectful.  Just call people what they want to be called.  What problem is that for you, except an ideological one?  Why do people insist on making it so difficult to simply be nice these days?

Well, yes, "Katie," vs. "Kathleen" seems unexceptionable.  But where does one stop?  If one is "Donald" on the roster, but the person says, "I prefer, 'Your Lordship, Don,'" when does one smile and when does one acquiesce?  The boundary between "Sure, OK, I'll note that" and "Wha?" is not easy to find. 

I'd say the boundary is at exactly the moment when they cease telling you what name to call them and start assuming titles. In fact, I ran into exactly this situation. A student gave me the option of calling them a really silly name (not at all similar to the roster) or a title+other name (also not at all on the roster). So I called them the silly name.