Personal Pronouns / First Names

[FishProf]

Why is there such opposition to the singular they?  650 years old isn't exactly new.

[marshwiggle]

Why is there such opposition to the singular they?  650 years old isn't exactly new.

This whole situation has been handled backwards. If some government stated that it was going to use and accept "they" as a gender-non-specific third personal pronoun in its communications, then it would spread quickly. There are all kinds of situations, such as job descriptions, where the gender is indeterminate, by definition, so all of those could use "they" instead of "she/he" or any other awkward construction.

If it were presented and implemented as a practical initiative, rather than an ideological one, it would be much easier to sell. (And then the whole "multiple genders/multiple pronouns" business would be moot.)

[writingprof]

Why is there such opposition to the singular they?  650 years old isn't exactly new.

This whole situation has been handled backwards. If some government stated that it was going to use and accept "they" as a gender-non-specific third personal pronoun in its communications, then it would spread quickly. There are all kinds of situations, such as job descriptions, where the gender is indeterminate, by definition, so all of those could use "they" instead of "she/he" or any other awkward construction.

If it were presented and implemented as a practical initiative, rather than an ideological one, it would be much easier to sell. (And then the whole "multiple genders/multiple pronouns" business would be moot.)

They speaks the truth.

[Caracal]

I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...

[fast_and_bulbous]

Why is there such opposition to the singular they?  650 years old isn't exactly new.

From the article - last sentence: Even people who object to singular they as a grammatical error use it themselves when they're not looking, a sure sign that anyone who objects to singular they is, if not a fool or an idiot, at least hopelessly out of date.

I am on board with that statement.

[writingprof]

I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...

Caracal, we may just have to disagree about this.  But if you really wish to discuss it, you might consider first whether a biological male's desire to be referred to with a female pronoun is really bereft of ideology.  How can it be?  Such a person isn't saying, "Though I am in reality a man, please do me the courtesy of referring to me as a woman."  Rather, he is saying, "I am a woman and mean to be thought of as such."  Leaving aside whether such a claim is true, it is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences.  I'm not sure what we gain by pretending otherwise.

[marshwiggle]

I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...

Including the individual who preferred "Yourmajesty"? What about if someone wanted "Womenarestupid" or any other statement that would be unacceptable in polite company otherwise? Is anything a person wishes you to say "rude to refuse"?

(And incidentally, since the only problematic pronoun is first-person singular, it's always going to be directed to someone other than the person in question, and often when that person is not even present. It's hard to imagine much harm is done in that case.)

[miss jane marple]

I thought the first person singular in English was I.

[marshwiggle]

I thought the first person singular in English was I.

Touché

[mahagonny]

I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...

Well, sticking to facts, things are changing. A request that would have been thought pretentious a few years ago is becoming a normal, respected request.

[Hegemony]

The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent.  That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name."  But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name."  That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.

[youllneverwalkalone]

The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent.  That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name."  But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name."  That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.

Jordan Peterson is that you? :D

[writingprof]

The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent.  That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name."  But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name."  That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.

Jordan Peterson is that you? :D

What? A progressive is responding to a fact by connecting it to a right-wing hate figure? Yeah, this issue isn't ideological at all.

[youllneverwalkalone]

The non-specific they is ~650 years old, but the specific they is quite recent.  That is, it has long been traditional to say, "If anyone comes, tell them to leave their name."  But the usage that is new is: "If Jordan comes, tell them to leave their name."  That is, them/them/their to refer to a specific named person — that's a new usage.

Jordan Peterson is that you? :D

What? A progressive is responding to a fact by connecting it to a right-wing hate figure? Yeah, this issue isn't ideological at all.

I just made a joke because Hegemony used the first name "Jordan" to make his point, with Jordan Peterson being a notable figure linked to precisely to this issue. That's all it was, a joke. If you wanna read more into it suits yourself, I don't really care.

[Caracal]

I'm not going to participate in pronoun foolishness in any case, and (for now at least) I'm in a situation where my superiors would back me up.

What exactly do you mean by this? It isn't really about ideology. It is just about courtesy. If someone wants to be addressed by a particular pronoun or particular name, it would be rude to refuse...

Caracal, we may just have to disagree about this.  But if you really wish to discuss it, you might consider first whether a biological male's desire to be referred to with a female pronoun is really bereft of ideology.  How can it be?  Such a person isn't saying, "Though I am in reality a man, please do me the courtesy of referring to me as a woman."  Rather, he is saying, "I am a woman and mean to be thought of as such."  Leaving aside whether such a claim is true, it is certainly ideological, and it certainly has political consequences.  I'm not sure what we gain by pretending otherwise.

Sure, but you're the one injecting the ideology here into what is a pretty straightforward request in some fairly inappropriate ways. When you say biological do you mean...genitalia? You don't actually know anything (hopefully) about that for your students and it certainly would be pretty rude to interrogate or make assumptions about a student's sexual organs, no? Chromosomes are also none of your business and actually for both of these things there are things beyond the binary you presuppose. It would be equally odd to be policing your student's gender presentation. Would you want to tell your class, "If you would like to be addressed as she you must conform to my ideas of femininity?"

I don't think you need to use they if you don't want to, because you can just work around it in class. You are even welcome to avoid using a particular pronoun if you want, as long as you aren't doing it in some way that is drawing attention to a student. Again, I really don't find in a classroom context that I use a lot of pronouns in general to refer to students.

But yeah, it is rude to use some name other than the one someone prefers, or to intentionally refer to them by a gender they have asked you not to. I'd actually say that in a teaching context it is highly unprofessional.