Cross-listing classes

[Charlotte]

I'm a little confused about the practice of cross-listing classes and I'm wondering if a situation I currently find myself in is normal or not.

Let's say the college has two classes, somewhat related but entirely different fields and really should have different content. Let's say, for example, one is Introduction to Water and the other class is Introduction to Swimming. (Not the actual classes!)

Now, Introduction to Water is not in my department, nor do I have the required hours in that area to teach it. Introduction to Swimming is my department and is in the field that my PhD is in. I have no problem teaching Introduction to Swimming.

But the chair has decided to cross-list these classes and have me teach both, with the same content. While there is a tiny bit of overlap, if I teach Introduction to Swimming the students in the other class will not be getting Introduction to Water.

Introduction to Water is a prerequisite for classes in a major. Again, I know nothing about teaching Introduction to Water because it's in another (related but separate) field. I know nothing of the content that is to be taught in this class.

Is this normal? Not only will I be teaching a class I'm not qualified to teach, but I will be teaching two classes and getting paid for one. I'm a little confused on why the chair has decided to do this and if this is generally an accepted practice.

[Ruralguy]

This seems inappropriate at face value.

When I cross-list the class its because its the same content, but labeled as a different discipline because students in that discipline would have interest in the course (and the course can legitimately seen as being in both depts. An example might be geophysics being offered by a Geology and a Physics Dept, labelled differently during registration, but the same course taught by the same person at same time and place. The other example I can envision are  Classics Departments offering Greek History, or an Econ dept. offering a Business course, etc..

But if you  mean Thermodynamics, PHYSICS 300 or whatever, being listed as GEOLOGY 101, and somehow you have to cover both topics, well, that's ridiculous.

[dismalist]

Charlotte, there are three separate issues here. They seem to be confounded by the use of the term cross-listed.

1. If you teach two different classes or sections, you teach two different classes or sections! Pay is a serious consideration. This has nothing to do with cross-listing as commonly understood.

2. If you can't teach one of those classes because of substance, you can't teach one of those classes because of substance! This has nothing to do with cross-listing.

3. Whether the two courses should be cross-listed, in the sense that Ruralguy, I, and everybody else understand, is an entirely different question, though that, I presume, one or more department chairs can decide.

[marshwiggle]

Charlotte, there are three separate issues here. They seem to be confounded by the use of the term cross-listed.

1. If you teach two different classes or sections, you teach two different classes or sections! Pay is a serious consideration. This has nothing to do with cross-listing as commonly understood.

2. If you can't teach one of those classes because of substance, you can't teach one of those classes because of substance! This has nothing to do with cross-listing.

3. Whether the two courses should be cross-listed, in the sense that Ruralguy, I, and everybody else understand, is an entirely different question, though that, I presume, one or more department chairs can decide.

This is the weird part. Part of the point of cross-listing is so that only one course needs to be taught, and so the enrollment benefits from the economy of scale.  There's no logical reason I can see to have two different groups from different disciplines taking two different lectures, with different assignments, etc. but "cross-listing" them.

(Are there students from one discipline minoring in the other? Or do many students transfer from one to the other? That would be about the only kind of scenario where there could be a fear that there was too much overlap for students to get credit for both. Whether that's actuallt the case or not...)

[dismalist]

 

Part of the point of cross-listing is so that only one course needs to be taught,

The way I know cross-listing is that a course from another department or specialty is offered for credit with one's own. Full stop.

This is going to get definitional.

Best of luck to Charlotte.

[Ruralguy]

Occasionally, I've heard of French 300 being offered at the same time and place and person as French 400, but that's not really cross listing. It's an admission that each course only had two people, and that was probably the only way that made sense to get the courses taught with a limited amount of instructors available.

[dismalist]

Occasionally, I've heard of French 300 being offered at the same time and place and person as French 400, but that's not really cross listing. It's an admission that each course only had two people, and that was probably the only way that made sense to get the courses taught with a limited amount of instructors available.

I had a class like that in second and third grade. I learned a helluva lot when I was in second grade. :-)

[Puget]

That's certainly not how cross-listing works here. Here, nothing about the class (content, name, enrollment cap) is different than usual. Rather, cross listing simply means another department has agreed that the course can also count toward their major. So for example there are a few classes in Education cross-listed for Psychology and vice versa.

[dismalist]

That's certainly not how cross-listing works here. Here, nothing about the class (content, name, enrollment cap) is different than usual. Rather, cross listing simply means another department has agreed that the course can also count toward their major. So for example there are a few classes in Education cross-listed for Psychology and vice versa.

Let's not confuse Charlotte more than necessary. We all agree that 

nothing about the class (content, name, enrollment cap) is different than usual. Rather, cross listing simply means another department has agreed that the course can also count toward their major.

[polly_mer]

I see two different problems.

1) Crosslisting is one course of identical student learning outcomes with multiple names.  In different terms, different people might teach it, but it's always the GEO110/PHYS215 Geophysics course, to use Ruralguy's example.  Crosslisting is not two different courses that both count for the same requirement.  For example, I used to teach both thermodynamics for physicists (PHYS 315) and engineering thermodynamics (ENG210).  At one university, physics majors could take either course, but engineering majors had to take engineering thermodynamics because that was the content that engineering students needed.  If these are indeed two different courses due to the material covered, then that's not cross listing in the standard sense of the word.

2) What being unqualified to teach the course means.  I have zero graduate credits in MATH courses where the normal generic qualification for being able to teach undergrads is 18 graduate credits.  However, I have taught undergrad courses identified as MATH XYZ in areas where I know the material forwards, backwards, upside down, and sideways and no one blinked an eye because knowing the material does not require graduate training in math.  I have zero credits of any kind in astronomy or geology, but I have enough background to credibly teach a unit of each of those for aspiring elementary teachers as part of a general science course.

Thus, if these really are two different courses, then they should be two different sections and you get paid for two sections.  If you truly cannot teach one of the courses, (not "don't have 18 graduate credits in that subfield", but "will not be able to keep one chapter ahead of the students because it's much too far afield almost like asking an engineer to teach history") then your chair needs to know that.

[Charlotte]

Thanks for the responses, all.

From what the chair is saying, it appears they do not have someone to teach Intro to Water so they are combining it with my class. I assumed cross listing was done when two classes had similar content. For example, a class on writing in the sciences might be taken by both Biology majors and also Chemistry majors. Each would have a different prefix that allows them to get credit towards their degree.

My main concern is that I feel I will be causing future problems to the Intro to Water students. It is an introductory class to their major and while I could muddle through teaching it, the fact remains that it is a prerequisite for their other classes and I'm not sure I can properly prepare them for their major.

It's similar to an introduction to English literature class being taught by someone who knows nothing about English literature and those students go onto more advanced classes and have to catch up. It might not be an issue for some students, but others might not do as well as they might if they had the correct prerequisite class.

I think my class examples might be confusing but essentially, while swimming might be touched on in the water class, in general the water class would be focused on other issues and might never even mention swimming.

I have two classes: each class required for a different major, one group of students expecting to learn about water and the other group expecting to learn about swimming. That is my main concern: how to I teach content needed for both groups. Especially when I will be learning the material for the water group right along with the class.

But I'm also wondering if this is a normal situation to be in or if my college is doing something unusual by combining these two classes. I'm not sure if I should be speaking up with my concerns or if this is just part of the job.

As a new instructor, I don't want to appear to be complaining or appear incompetent if this is normal. But I am caught off guard by the request both for the difficulties in building the class for both groups and because I've never had any exposure to the other field.

I actually had to Google the class name for the other field, to understand what the class was even about. That is how unfamiliar I am with that content.

[Hibush]

From what the chair is saying, it appears they do not have someone to teach Intro to Water

But I'm also wondering if this is a normal situation to be in or if my college is doing something unusual by combining these two classes.

I'm not sure if I should be speaking up with my concerns or if this is just part of the job.

As a new instructor, I don't want to appear to be complaining....

These concerns are nicely expresses and probably fairly common.

On the first point, I see the chair is in a real pickle because there is no instructor for Intro to Water. They are flailing about trying to find a solution. My bet is that asking you to teach it is a desperation move of some kind, not some thought-out strategy. If that is the case, trying to find the logic behind it, or compliance with standards, is futile. There isn't any.

If that scenario is close to true, it is not your responsibility to fix. You are free to help if you choose, but do so only in a way that advances your tenure & promotion portfolio. Accepting all the stuff that nobody else wants usually heads faculty in the other direction.

Wondering whether the chair is making a normal request is a typical reaction when one is being gaslighted. Listen to that questioning voice! Get more information from your chair (and other faculty).

Being clear about priorities is not complaining. Simply saying no to inappropriate requests is not complaining. You presumably have some professional goals (e.g T&P portfolio) that the chair is already on board with. Be clear that this assignment is inconsistent with those goals (e.g. weakens that Intro to Swimming course, causes you to do less of some essential responsibility.)

[Zeus Bird]

My concern is that the era of hy-flex hybrid formats has opened the door to this very expansive notion of what 'cross-listing' a course entails.

[spork]

Is your employer in financial difficulty?

[polly_mer]

From what the chair is saying, it appears they do not have someone to teach Intro to Water

But I'm also wondering if this is a normal situation to be in or if my college is doing something unusual by combining these two classes.

I'm not sure if I should be speaking up with my concerns or if this is just part of the job.

As a new instructor, I don't want to appear to be complaining....

These concerns are nicely expresses and probably fairly common.

On the first point, I see the chair is in a real pickle because there is no instructor for Intro to Water. They are flailing about trying to find a solution. My bet is that asking you to teach it is a desperation move of some kind, not some thought-out strategy. If that is the case, trying to find the logic behind it, or compliance with standards, is futile. There isn't any.

If that scenario is close to true, it is not your responsibility to fix. You are free to help if you choose, but do so only in a way that advances your tenure & promotion portfolio. Accepting all the stuff that nobody else wants usually heads faculty in the other direction.

Wondering whether the chair is making a normal request is a typical reaction when one is being gaslighted. Listen to that questioning voice! Get more information from your chair (and other faculty).

Being clear about priorities is not complaining. Simply saying no to inappropriate requests is not complaining. You presumably have some professional goals (e.g T&P portfolio) that the chair is already on board with. Be clear that this assignment is inconsistent with those goals (e.g. weakens that Intro to Swimming course, causes you to do less of some essential responsibility.)

I agree with Hibush (except for the explicit mention of T&P portfolio because that's usually inapplicable for instructors).  If it's really a class you cannot teach because water and swimming hardly overlap, then that's something to put back on your chair's desk ASAP.  Emphasize how the water students will be severely shortchanged under this current plan.