The grading thread

[Sun_Worshiper]

The ESL issue is a challenging one. At this point, my position is that I'm not an English teacher and so I'm not going to grade students on the basis of grammar or spelling. However, if it is so poorly written that I can't understand the content then I will penalize the student, whether a native English speaker or a foreign student.

[Caracal]

The ESL issue is a challenging one. At this point, my position is that I'm not an English teacher and so I'm not going to grade students on the basis of grammar or spelling. However, if it is so poorly written that I can't understand the content then I will penalize the student, whether a native English speaker or a foreign student.

I'm in a humanities field, but there are some assignments that I grade in the way you describe. If I'm grading an in class or take home essay exam, writing mechanics as such are only a point or two of the overall grade. I'm not asking or expecting students to go through drafts or proofread these assignments, so it doesn't make sense to emphasize that in the grading. However, its never totally possible to separate out writing from everything else. At the extreme end there are cases where the prose is so bad I can't actually figure out what someone is trying to say. But even when things aren't that dire, good, clear writing is how you explain and express complex ideas.

I've had non-native speakers who get Bs on my exams who I suspect would have done much better if they could write the essay in a language they were fully fluent in. These students prose was competent enough-sometimes it was actually technically than lots of the other students, but they struggled to develop their ideas fully. There's nothing I can do about that as an instructor, however. I can't grade the ideas in your head, only the ones you put on paper.

[downer]

I did recently see a faculty member who had been an ESL student argue that you are not doing ESL students any favors by ingoring their grammar problems.

[marshwiggle]

I did recently see a faculty member who had been an ESL student argue that you are not doing ESL students any favors by ingoring their grammar problems.

This could apply to all kinds of students and all kinds of errors. If there are students who honestly want to know how to improve, without grade-grubbing, I think most faculty would be happy to provide detailed feedback.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I did recently see a faculty member who had been an ESL student argue that you are not doing ESL students any favors by ingoring their grammar problems.

I'm sure this is true. However, I don't have the time to offer the kind of in-depth, line-by-line assistance that many students (both native-English speakers and ESL) need - and it is also harder to do that now that things are turned in via Zoom, instead of on blue books. I hope students visit the writing center from time to time for help with writing, and I hope that reading and writing lots of papers (which they have to do in my classes) helps them to become better writers.

[ciao_yall]

I did recently see a faculty member who had been an ESL student argue that you are not doing ESL students any favors by ingoring their grammar problems.

I'm sure this is true. However, I don't have the time to offer the kind of in-depth, line-by-line assistance that many students (both native-English speakers and ESL) need - and it is also harder to do that now that things are turned in via Zoom, instead of on blue books. I hope students visit the writing center from time to time for help with writing, and I hope that reading and writing lots of papers (which they have to do in my classes) helps them to become better writers.

I might take 10% off if the writing is bad and tell them to go to the writing center for help with their English. I tell them I don't want to take off points but they do need to practice their writing. Sometimes they shape write up - they were getting careless.

Now that students post online discussions in this 100% Zoom environment instead of handing them in, they are more careful about proofreading. They seem to care more about each other's opinions of their writing than mine!

[fishbrains]

There's also a big difference between garbled language and repeated/quirky errors. I once received an entire essay written in future tense. I commented upon it, but it didn't fail. Students from several Asian countries often struggle with articles because their languages don't have an equivalent (and the rules are bizarre and inconsistent in English).

This tends to be my approach as well. Also, I'm in a region where spoken English often doesn't conform to established grammar rules, so a regional quirk like dropping the "ly" off of adverbs is something I note, but don't punish to any great degree. After all, we just talk different around here. The students do complain about the struggles of code-switching at times.

[Caracal]

There's also a big difference between garbled language and repeated/quirky errors. I once received an entire essay written in future tense. I commented upon it, but it didn't fail. Students from several Asian countries often struggle with articles because their languages don't have an equivalent (and the rules are bizarre and inconsistent in English).

This tends to be my approach as well. Also, I'm in a region where spoken English often doesn't conform to established grammar rules, so a regional quirk like dropping the "ly" off of adverbs is something I note, but don't punish to any great degree. After all, we just talk different around here. The students do complain about the struggles of code-switching at times.

Yeah, and if you're talking in class, or even writing something informal, that isn't a problem. But in formal writing there are expectations around writing in a certain register and its something students will do well to grasp.

[fishbrains]

There's also a big difference between garbled language and repeated/quirky errors. I once received an entire essay written in future tense. I commented upon it, but it didn't fail. Students from several Asian countries often struggle with articles because their languages don't have an equivalent (and the rules are bizarre and inconsistent in English).

This tends to be my approach as well. Also, I'm in a region where spoken English often doesn't conform to established grammar rules, so a regional quirk like dropping the "ly" off of adverbs is something I note, but don't punish to any great degree. After all, we just talk different around here. The students do complain about the struggles of code-switching at times.

Yeah, and if you're talking in class, or even writing something informal, that isn't a problem. But in formal writing there are expectations around writing in a certain register and its something students will do well to grasp.

True that.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

OMG, I just finished grading the most horrific lab reports. So many points were lost for not following directions on how to structure and organize the lab report. Geez. Does anyone read the syllabus anymore? Guess not.

[Parasaurolophus]

I'm ahead on essays, and kind of far behind on quizzes. Sigh.

[the_geneticist]

I'm using Canvas for the first time and I really do not like that you can't customize the exam/quiz settings as much as you can in Blackboard.

For one, I can't figure out how to make it give partial credit on some question types where it should be easy (like matching).  And the "grade by question" feature that my TAs LOVED in Blackboard is in "Beta testing" on Canvas and not always available.  Why????

Grumble.

[Aster]

OMG, I just finished grading the most horrific lab reports. So many points were lost for not following directions on how to structure and organize the lab report. Geez. Does anyone read the syllabus anymore? Guess not.

I wouldn't read most contemporary syllabi either, as there is so much useless boilerplate spam forced onto them by the college administration that the document loses much of its actual value.

Heck, many of my colleagues don't even refer students to the "official syllabus" anymore. Instead, these professors release "course documents" that read more like traditional, functional syllabi.

[marshwiggle]

OMG, I just finished grading the most horrific lab reports. So many points were lost for not following directions on how to structure and organize the lab report. Geez. Does anyone read the syllabus anymore? Guess not.

I wouldn't read most contemporary syllabi either, as there is so much useless boilerplate spam forced onto them by the college administration that the document loses much of its actual value.

Heck, many of my colleagues don't even refer students to the "official syllabus" anymore. Instead, these professors release "course documents" that read more like traditional, functional syllabi.

To be fair*, a lot of that "syllabus bloat" has come from all kinds of areas within the institution that "have to" have their stuff included because it's so "vitally important". And of course, having to repeat the same information for every course makes it totally redundant. They only have to hear about Counselling services, the Writing Centre, etc. once each term, if that.

*So admins are lobbied by all of these other groups to include stuff.

[AvidReader]

To be fair*, a lot of that "syllabus bloat" has come from all kinds of areas within the institution that "have to" have their stuff included because it's so "vitally important". And of course, having to repeat the same information for every course makes it totally redundant. They only have to hear about Counselling services, the Writing Centre, etc. once each term, if that.

In this digital age, we are required to (hyper)link to a series of university policies: academic integrity, student accommodations, policy on (not) bringing children to class, etc. There are maybe ten.

Fine. Easy. This is great--and also makes it very clear that these are not just my guidelines, but universal.

Then my department says:
But the statement on academic integrity is really important, so you should also include that in the syllabus itself.
But the statement on student accommodations is really important, so you should also include that in the syllabus itself.
etc.

AR.