Vaccination nation

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

She's not afraid of needles- she's donated blood. Unfortunately, she won't go into the why. SO mentioned that she won't be able to volunteer with preemies until she gets a shot. I really don't know why she's reluctant.

[apl68]

This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.

I wish you'd acknowledge that it's not ALL a partisan political matter.  I'm pretty sure that this vaccine-hesitant staff member I'm talking about DIDN'T vote for Trump.  And I know a lot of people who did who have also gotten the vaccine without making any sort of a fuss over it.  This vaccine hesitancy business (And a lot of other divisive matters in our society, for that matter) goes far, far beyond simple partisan political fights.  Incredible as it may seem to some, not all of us are so wrapped up in partisan politics that they determine our stance on anything and everything.

[pgher]

This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.

I wish you'd acknowledge that it's not ALL a partisan political matter.  I'm pretty sure that this vaccine-hesitant staff member I'm talking about DIDN'T vote for Trump.  And I know a lot of people who did who have also gotten the vaccine without making any sort of a fuss over it.  This vaccine hesitancy business (And a lot of other divisive matters in our society, for that matter) goes far, far beyond simple partisan political fights.  Incredible as it may seem to some, not all of us are so wrapped up in partisan politics that they determine our stance on anything and everything.

My brother told me his daughters haven't been vaccinated--including a nurse and a pharmacy tech! They are clearly NOT Trump voters. But they are young and uncertain about the mRNA technology. They talk about "I Am Legend," a movie in which a vaccine turns everyone into zombies--which my brother points out is NOT a documentary.

[Caracal]

My brother told me his daughters haven't been vaccinated--including a nurse and a pharmacy tech! They are clearly NOT Trump voters. But they are young and uncertain about the mRNA technology. They talk about "I Am Legend," a movie in which a vaccine turns everyone into zombies--which my brother points out is NOT a documentary.

What's weird about this sort of skepticism is the way a lot of people are uninterested in sorting out their concerns. If we put aside the zombie stuff, there's nothing absurd about having some questions about novel medical drugs and technologies. If I go to my doctor with some issue and he suggests some new drug or treatment, it would be quite reasonable for me to have some questions, like "How safe is it? Would there be any reason to be concerned about long term effects? How does it compare to the old treatments?"

What I don't really understand is just saying "I'm uncertain about mRNA technology," as if that is just an impossible thing to learn more about. That's especially baffling if you're a nurse or pharmacy tech and presumably can understand medical literature and have very easy access to people with expertise who would presumably be happy to answer your questions and address your concerns. I don't know, maybe that's one of those things where it can be hard for academic types to understand people who, faced with some question, wouldn't try to work it out with research?

[secundem_artem]

Today's post on Your Local Epidemiologist has some great info on talking to the vaccine hesitant:

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/vaccine-hesitant-how-can-you-help

[downer]

I don't find scepticism about vaccines puzzling at all.

For one thing, medicine does not have everything worked out. It is constantly revising and refining its base of knowledge. Some parts of medical knowledge are more squishy than others. New innovations are more likely to turn out to have unexpected downsides.

Then there's Big Pharma, which has a scandalously bad record. There have been some great discoveries that have saved millions of lives, but there have been plenty of cases of inadequately researched drugs that often have terrible side effects or are far less effective than claimed.

The scientific basis for medical technology has been significantly undermined by the corporate need to make a profit.

Nurses and doctors are closest to the medical field, and see how imperfect it is. They don't trust it very much.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210628/huge-number-of-hospital-workers

(Less than half of doctors are willing to be organ donors -- more than the general population but still significantly low given the desparate need for organs.)

The medical establishment has been facing a crisis of trustworthiness for a long time.

Having said all that, I think it is worth taking the risk of getting the vaccine, versus the risk of getting the virus, and I am vaccinated. But people are famously not very good at assessing and comparing probabilities. The main info they are given is that the vaccines are totally safe, and many don't really believe that. That's where they get stuck.

[dismalist]

The scientific basis for medical technology has been significantly undermined by the corporate need to make a profit.

It's the lure of profits that has made the miracles of modern drugs. The drugs work only when the science is sound.

[Caracal]

I don't find scepticism about vaccines puzzling at all.

For one thing, medicine does not have everything worked out. It is constantly revising and refining its base of knowledge. Some parts of medical knowledge are more squishy than others. New innovations are more likely to turn out to have unexpected downsides.

Then there's Big Pharma, which has a scandalously bad record. There have been some great discoveries that have saved millions of lives, but there have been plenty of cases of inadequately researched drugs that often have terrible side effects or are far less effective than claimed.

The scientific basis for medical technology has been significantly undermined by the corporate need to make a profit.

Nurses and doctors are closest to the medical field, and see how imperfect it is. They don't trust it very much.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210628/huge-number-of-hospital-workers

(Less than half of doctors are willing to be organ donors -- more than the general population but still significantly low given the desparate need for organs.)

The medical establishment has been facing a crisis of trustworthiness for a long time.

Having said all that, I think it is worth taking the risk of getting the vaccine, versus the risk of getting the virus, and I am vaccinated. But people are famously not very good at assessing and comparing probabilities. The main info they are given is that the vaccines are totally safe, and many don't really believe that. That's where they get stuck.

On some level, I agree with you. I don't have some large scale belief in science or medicine. That said, it isn't like most vaccine skeptics have some better alternative. If they got sick, they'd go see a doctor. They do believe in the medical system.

It would be like if you went to three different doctors and they all said that some course of treatment was the one they would recommend, and agreed that it carried low risks and after that you just said "nah, I think I won't do it, might be too dangerous, I've sort of heard that on the internet" Well, why are you bothering to go to the doctors in the first place?

I think you're right. It is about pervasive skepticism and doubt about institutions and experts. But the part I can never quite get is how weirdly selective that doubt is and how people seem to have a hard time testing their concerns. In some sense, I have an easier time understanding the hardcore anti-vaccine people. They have ridiculous ideas, but I can get being unwilling to drop a set of beliefs or ideology. People who just have vague "concerns," that they won't try to address confuse me. I get that lots of people have limited access to doctors, and could be persuaded if they thought their concerns were being listened to and addressed. It doesn't make much sense to me if you're a nurse...

[lightning]

This morning I learned that a vaccine-hesitant staff member and her family are now working up their nerve to get vaccinated.  The local surge in cases has made them reconsider.  I'm just trying to be encouraging with them, since I know that browbeating won't work.

I really think Biden should just call it the "Trump Vaccine," and that might get some of the politically motivated vaccine-hesitant citizens to get the poke.

I wish you'd acknowledge that it's not ALL a partisan political matter.  I'm pretty sure that this vaccine-hesitant staff member I'm talking about DIDN'T vote for Trump.  And I know a lot of people who did who have also gotten the vaccine without making any sort of a fuss over it.  This vaccine hesitancy business (And a lot of other divisive matters in our society, for that matter) goes far, far beyond simple partisan political fights.  Incredible as it may seem to some, not all of us are so wrapped up in partisan politics that they determine our stance on anything and everything.

I did that already.

[apl68]

Looks like we're getting two vaccine-hesitant staff members vaccinated.  One got it just yesterday on her day off, and is here today, so she must not be feeling serious side effects.

[downer]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/19/education/vaccine-mandate-indiana-university.html

The challenges to the legality and morality of vaccine mandates are interesting. But I can't get over the hypocrisy of the politicians who want to forbid businesses from mandating vaccines when they have previously been all about supporting business rights to do whatever they want.

[nebo113]

Current FB meme asks why folks who scarf down fast food chicken nuggets and burgers and tuna salad sandwiches, all of questionable provenance,  worry about the ingredients in the covid vax.

[AmLitHist]

Current FB meme asks why folks who scarf down fast food chicken nuggets and burgers and tuna salad sandwiches, all of questionable provenance,  worry about the ingredients in the covid vax.

Probably because the risks of those foods are pretty predictable (food poisoning, high cholesterol, etc.) and are considered acceptable since they're either relatively rare or something that won't affect the consumer immediately (i.e., "I'll start eating better tomorrow but right now I'm hungry and this tastes good").  I'm not justifying or agreeing with that logic, but I get it.

Particularly with the mRNA vaccines, there's probably a big element of not understanding the basic science and then being skeptical/suspicious of it.  Heck, I get that, too--given a reasonable choice, I wasn't wild about getting the mRNA vaccine (simply because of family health problems and the genetic bases of those, and an admittedly irrational/somewhat superstitious aversion to doing anything that might remotely have a chance of further screwing with my already screwy profile).  But weighing my DNA worries against the very real and immediate possibility of getting COVID and (due to several comorbidities) dying from it, it was a no-brainer to get vaccinated.

In essence, that "fancy science" is more ripe for suspicion and conspiracy theories, since "they" (the scientists) know something "I" don't, and thus "they" cant be trusted to try to put one over on "us" and "we" can't check up on them.  And since science says those bad foods are bad for me, but I've eaten them for years and am just fine, there's more proof that I shouldn't listen to the scientists when they say the shots are good and I should take them.  (At least, I'd imagine that's the thinking.) 

[Puget]

Heck, I get that, too--given a reasonable choice, I wasn't wild about getting the mRNA vaccine (simply because of family health problems and the genetic bases of those, and an admittedly irrational/somewhat superstitious aversion to doing anything that might remotely have a chance of further screwing with my already screwy profile).  But weighing my DNA worries against the very real and immediate possibility of getting COVID and (due to several comorbidities) dying from it, it was a no-brainer to get vaccinated.

I assume you know this by now and are just your earlier thoughts, but just to make sure someone else reading doesn't get confused-- mRNA vaccines cannot change your DNA-- they can't even get into the nucleus where the DNA is, and they certainly can't insert themselves into your DNA. They are just protein factories to make antibodies, and the mRNA doesn't last long in your body, only a few days (indeed, the thing that took so long to figure out-- and remember mRNA vaccine research was going on for a decade or more pre-pandemic-- was how to get it to last long enough to make enough antibodies).

The link secundem_artem posted earlier has a good explainer near the bottom, plus some tips on now to talk to the hesitant.

[dismalist]

What I said on the Coronavirus thread: For a healthy young person, the chance of getting killed by Corona is about one in 1000. A person facing those odds who does not get vaccinated, is merely less risk averse than most people on this board, including me. But such people are not necessarily stupid, evil, politically misguided, anti-science, or irrational. Some people like going to Las Vegas, others don't. People differ.