Vaccination nation

[kaysixteen]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

[dismalist]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.

[Stockmann]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.

Or just deny the willfully unvaccinated insurance coverage for Covid-related expenses and/or raise their insurance premiums.

[dismalist]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.

Or just deny the willfully unvaccinated insurance coverage for Covid-related expenses and/or raise their insurance premiums.

Yup. Never gonna happen though.

[nebo113]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Ok, then tax them into getting vaccinated: If you get vaccinated, your tax will go up. Or, is there no symmetry?  Alas, sounds moronic to me.

Or just deny the willfully unvaccinated insurance coverage for Covid-related expenses and/or raise their insurance premiums.

Yup. Never gonna happen though.

And that assumes they have health insurance to begin with.

[spork]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Nope. Depends on the person, the environment, and the incentive. Vaccination rates often increase when people receive cash or an object for getting vaccinated. Yet employees often perform better when they have a sense of autonomy, purpose, and value than when there is simply the prospect of an immediate financial reward (performance bonus).

[apl68]

One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

[Puget]

One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

[dismalist]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Nope. Depends on the person, the environment, and the incentive. Vaccination rates often increase when people receive cash or an object for getting vaccinated. Yet employees often perform better when they have a sense of autonomy, purpose, and value than when there is simply the prospect of an immediate financial reward (performance bonus).

Yup, I couldn't perform better on account I was already performing at the optimum. Had I had more autonomy --not just the sense of it -- I would have performed even better!

[Vkw10]

I just read a short piece in the Boston Globe today, citing a 1990s book by an Alfie Kohn, the gist of which seems to be that bribing people to do stuff is counterproductive, actually makes those people want to do that stuff less.   I am planning on getting the book, but the thesis sounds more than credible...?

Nope. Depends on the person, the environment, and the incentive. Vaccination rates often increase when people receive cash or an object for getting vaccinated. Yet employees often perform better when they have a sense of autonomy, purpose, and value than when there is simply the prospect of an immediate financial reward (performance bonus).

Wonder if that's the book about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation I read a couple of decades ago? I picked it up because it was being quoted as saying that rewarding kids for doing things in programs like Accelerated Reader was counterproductive, but found the book I read more nuanced. As I recall, occasional bribes worked to get people to do a single thing but repeated bribes to get them to develop a habit rarely worked long-term. If it's the same book, it's worth reading.

[mamselle]

I remember that from fresman-level Psych 101.

Inconsistent, infrequent reinforcement correlated more closely with learned behaviors than either consistent rewards, or more frequent ones.

I've got the book, could probably look up the citations.

I use it myself when teaching all the time. "Yes, correct, good" said neutrally in an even, mildly interested voice is the badeline; where the difficulty of the issue or the ingenuity of the answer call for it, I let my enthusiasm for that work show.

Otherwise, the learned expectation of a consistent or highly frequent/predictable reinforcement causes extinction of the response over time...

M.

[Caracal]

One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

Yeah, it was a really different experience knowing exactly why I was feeling crummy. In normal circumstances, if I'd just spiked a 103 degree fever I would have been pretty alarmed, but as it was it just felt strange. I have a fair amount of health anxiety and it was interesting to realize how much of getting sick is the worry that it could be more serious, the uncertainty about how long it might last, etc.

Of course, we have the benefit of being able to take a day off work in anticipation of symptoms. I actually just decided to cancel my classes the following day too since even though I was feeling much better, I was still a bit tired. Some people really can't just take a day off work.

[apl68]

One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

That's all very well for science nerds.  But the average person with a sore arm, fever, and chills is only going to see it as a sign that something is wrong.  All you can do is encourage them to remember that 24 hours or so of symptoms with a guaranteed recovery is better than taking a chance on a week or more of symptoms and possibly worse.

[apl68]

One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

Yeah, it was a really different experience knowing exactly why I was feeling crummy. In normal circumstances, if I'd just spiked a 103 degree fever I would have been pretty alarmed, but as it was it just felt strange. I have a fair amount of health anxiety and it was interesting to realize how much of getting sick is the worry that it could be more serious, the uncertainty about how long it might last, etc.

Of course, we have the benefit of being able to take a day off work in anticipation of symptoms. I actually just decided to cancel my classes the following day too since even though I was feeling much better, I was still a bit tired. Some people really can't just take a day off work.

Which is why I've long since assured everybody that if they take the vaccine and have a reaction, they're welcome to take off for it.  Nobody has done so, but they know it's there for them if they need it.

[mamselle]

A friend and her husband are dealing with a seriously sub-optimal scenario related to this.

She was recently diagnosed with 3(-) breast CA, thankfully no mets except to a lymph node, and was working towards a treatment plan that would start with regular chemo and might go further as a participant in a clinical trial, if needed (they live in Houston and have M. D. Anderson connections via his position at a local univ., and their church). As worrying as the diagnosis was, she was thinking at least this was the best-hope scenario for care.

Then last Friday, although they've both been vaccinated for a couple of months now, she and her husband tested Covid-positive, and while she's currently asymptomatic, he's down with a serious fever at the moment.

Her chemo has been postponed until the quarantine is up, and some side issues may call her participation in any later trials into question, which is worrying her in case the chemo alone is not effective.

There are only a couple ways they could have caught the virus, they went masked everywhere despite their vax status, but however it happened, it happened.

Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water...

M.