Vaccination nation

[Caracal]

A friend and her husband are dealing with a seriously sub-optimal scenario related to this.

She was recently diagnosed with 3(-) breast CA, thankfully no mets except to a lymph node, and was working towards a treatment plan that would start with regular chemo and might go further as a participant in a clinical trial, if needed (they live in Houston and have M. D. Anderson connections via his position at a local univ., and their church). As worrying as the diagnosis was, she was thinking at least this was the best-hope scenario for care.

Then last Friday, although they've both been vaccinated for a couple of months now, she and her husband tested Covid-positive, and while she's currently asymptomatic, he's down with a serious fever at the moment.

Her chemo has been postponed until the quarantine is up, and some side issues may call her participation in any later trials into question, which is worrying her in case the chemo alone is not effective.

There are only a couple ways they could have caught the virus, they went masked everywhere despite their vax status, but however it happened, it happened.

Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water...

M.

Well, 90 percent effectiveness means you will see some breakthrough infections and unfortunately the vaccine isn't as effective for people with some conditions. Hopefully, the vaccine keeps her asymptomatic and keeps him from having a bad case.

[Puget]

One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

That's all very well for science nerds.  But the average person with a sore arm, fever, and chills is only going to see it as a sign that something is wrong.  All you can do is encourage them to remember that 24 hours or so of symptoms with a guaranteed recovery is better than taking a chance on a week or more of symptoms and possibly worse.

What I'm suggesting is that there is more education that it isn't a sign something is wrong. You don't have to be a science nerd to understand a simple message that these are just symptoms of your body responding well to the vaccine, and yes it may be unpleasant for a day but isn't it amazing that your immune system is getting ready to protect you.

[Caracal]

One of our staff members who just got vaccinated had a sharp bout with side effects over the weekend.  She's better now.  I can see how stories like hers have made some reluctant to take the vaccine.  The manifest presence of real side effects is naturally going to make people who are inclined to be skittish about such things wonder whether worse side effects might not be lurking out there.

I think it can be helpful to reframe from "side effects" (which sounds like something that shouldn't happen and might be harmful) to "signs your immune system is responding robustly to the vaccine" which is what they are. I had never been so happy to feel like crap as after my second dose.

(Plus as a science nerd I found it fascinating to experience which illness symptoms are caused by the immune response itself in the absence of an actual infection-- quite a lot of them it turns out, but the bounce back is much more sudden and complete afterward).

That's all very well for science nerds.  But the average person with a sore arm, fever, and chills is only going to see it as a sign that something is wrong.  All you can do is encourage them to remember that 24 hours or so of symptoms with a guaranteed recovery is better than taking a chance on a week or more of symptoms and possibly worse.

What I'm suggesting is that there is more education that it isn't a sign something is wrong. You don't have to be a science nerd to understand a simple message that these are just symptoms of your body responding well to the vaccine, and yes it may be unpleasant for a day but isn't it amazing that your immune system is getting ready to protect you.

The thing I never really appreciated before all this is how cool immune systems are. Most experts I follow seem pretty convinced that the vaccines will be effective against current and future mutations because of how multilayered the immune response to the vaccine is. It's pretty incredible that you basically just show your immune system a virus through the vaccine and it builds up this hugely complex set of defenses that protect you from future exposure to the actual virus.

[kaysixteen]

It would seem that this country needs to bite the bullet and impose widespread vax mandates for all eligible folks who lack legit med excuses not to vax.   No one really likes telling adults they must vax, but it seems to be that we have no choice.   So what can we look forward to, culturally and politically, should we go this route, and how might we mitigate the disastrous blowback such mandates will almost certainly occur...

(Full disclosure here... I finally gave up wearing my mask at church about 6 weeks ago, thereabouts, but now realistically I feel that I must bring it back.   Being the only congregant to consistently obey the mast mandate when it was in force originally was tough enough, and I confess I have more or less lost all patience with those unwilling to vax.)

[nebo113]

It would seem that this country needs to bite the bullet and impose widespread vax mandates for all eligible folks who lack legit med excuses not to vax.   No one really likes telling adults they must vax, but it seems to be that we have no choice.   So what can we look forward to, culturally and politically, should we go this route, and how might we mitigate the disastrous blowback such mandates will almost certainly occur...

(Full disclosure here... I finally gave up wearing my mask at church about 6 weeks ago, thereabouts, but now realistically I feel that I must bring it back.   Being the only congregant to consistently obey the mast mandate when it was in force originally was tough enough, and I confess I have more or less lost all patience with those unwilling to vax.)

K16.....not trying to be snarky.  Why do you continue to attend a church where congregants seem not to value the health of other congregants?

[Caracal]

It would seem that this country needs to bite the bullet and impose widespread vax mandates for all eligible folks who lack legit med excuses not to vax.   No one really likes telling adults they must vax, but it seems to be that we have no choice.   So what can we look forward to, culturally and politically, should we go this route, and how might we mitigate the disastrous blowback such mandates will almost certainly occur...

(Full disclosure here... I finally gave up wearing my mask at church about 6 weeks ago, thereabouts, but now realistically I feel that I must bring it back.   Being the only congregant to consistently obey the mast mandate when it was in force originally was tough enough, and I confess I have more or less lost all patience with those unwilling to vax.)

Actual mandatory vaccine mandates would be practically unenforceable, would involve an unacceptable level of coercion and wouldn't be effective. Employer and school mandates, on the other hand, would almost certainly make a huge difference and don't involve all of the problems.

[kaysixteen]

Nice weather we're having.

Pastor today asked for prayer as he decides whether to get the vax.   After service I told him he, esp given his personal circumstances, needs to vax up.   I do not think my view is the majority one here.   I did put mask back on today, and got several respectful comments.... but of course I was alone.   Delta was talked about, it may well be a potential tipping point, but there was also a guy, 60-something, whose daughter has just caught covid... this guy planned to go online today to purchance hydroxycloroquine, and that heartworm drug (ivomectrin?) that is also all the rage amongst the anti-knowledge set, for her.

Nice weather we're having.

[nebo113]

K16......I am a heathen, but I know that your faith and your church are important to you.  I regret your situation.

[apl68]

Church is a form of family.  We can't just give up on family.  We don't want them to give up on us either, when we're in a bad place.

I've been fortunate in having a church family and pastor that have taken COVID much more seriously.  One of the first super-spreader events in our state was a church that got blindsided by COVID very early in the pandemic.  They lost a respected older member from that early outbreak.  That convinced a lot of churches to recognize that it was a real problem.  Our pastor got vaccinated himself fairly quickly once it became widely available, but spent some weeks weighing the consequences of making a pulpit appeal for vaccination.  I'd rather he had done so earlier, myself, but I understand his reluctance to use his position to make an appeal on a secular subject that has--needlessly--gotten so wrapped up in emotions and controversy.

Sounds like kay's pastor is going through a similar development, but is much farther behind in it.  His reluctance to see reason is deeply regrettable, but if there's evidence that he might still do so, then he needs to be encouraged, not condemned.

[Caracal]

Some important context. Vaccines are working very well to prevent infection.

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1421934766505398272/photo/1

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

I found out today that some of the student gardeners are not vaccinated. Some of them are afraid to receive the vaccine. Any suggestions on how to encourage them to get one?

[clean]

Have they specified the fear? 

That would be helpful to know what they fear before attempting to encourage them (or overcome the fear).  IF they fear that the injection will include nanites that will allow the Gubment to track their movements, that is one thing, but if they fear that it will  alter their DNA and change the babies that they can produce in the future, that is another.

I dont believe that there is a 'one fear fits all' out there to be countered. 

Though today I saw on the news a 30somthing year old father with his family sitting outside the window of the hospital lamenting that he didnt take the vaccine For Them, as HE now fears that he wont be there to hug and hold his children again.  That video, or similar may help sway some minds.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

Have they specified the fear? 

That would be helpful to know what they fear before attempting to encourage them (or overcome the fear).  IF they fear that the injection will include nanites that will allow the Gubment to track their movements, that is one thing, but if they fear that it will  alter their DNA and change the babies that they can produce in the future, that is another.

I dont believe that there is a 'one fear fits all' out there to be countered. 

Though today I saw on the news a 30somthing year old father with his family sitting outside the window of the hospital lamenting that he didnt take the vaccine For Them, as HE now fears that he wont be there to hug and hold his children again.  That video, or similar may help sway some minds.

People getting sick from the vaccine for weeks and then dying was mentioned. I think they're more afraid of getting sick from the vaccine than the actual virus.

[kaysixteen]

Pray yes, of course.   But we must find some way to cut through the disinformation and groupthink biases (Rachel Maddow has reported that some folks in Missouri are actually arranging secret vaccination sessions, lest they be seen entering vax site, getting vaxxed, etc).  There is also the reality that people, as they age, more or less always get less flexible in their thinking, and more set/ reinforced in those thought processes--- especially when they are in a closed feedback-loop environment such as a small religious congregation.  It probably would not do for me to talk about everything my pastor has said from the pulpit over the last 15+ months (or even before covid, for that matter), nor even more so about what is normal thinking on most of  the congregants' part-- heck, the pastor had to preach against Qanon some months back.   Some of my motivations for remaining in this congregation are not good, but some are, and in any case, one does not just abandon one's church, go back on one's membership vows, for less than serious reasons.

All that said, I reallllllyyyyy would like to know how to teach these folks better...

[Caracal]

Have they specified the fear? 

That would be helpful to know what they fear before attempting to encourage them (or overcome the fear).  IF they fear that the injection will include nanites that will allow the Gubment to track their movements, that is one thing, but if they fear that it will  alter their DNA and change the babies that they can produce in the future, that is another.

I dont believe that there is a 'one fear fits all' out there to be countered. 

Though today I saw on the news a 30somthing year old father with his family sitting outside the window of the hospital lamenting that he didnt take the vaccine For Them, as HE now fears that he wont be there to hug and hold his children again.  That video, or similar may help sway some minds.

People getting sick from the vaccine for weeks and then dying was mentioned. I think they're more afraid of getting sick from the vaccine than the actual virus.

Would it help for them to talk to a doctor? If your student health is decent you could encourage them to make an appointment to discuss it. That fear isn't irrational-it isn't like they are saying they think there's a microchip in the vaccines. You would think that if the fear is just about the possible side effects, than they would be open to hearing about what the risks of serious side effects from the vaccines are compared to the risk of getting the virus, as well as the risks of spreading it to others.