Vaccination nation

[mahagonny]

I read about a study of how people change (or don't change) their strongly held opinions when presented with evidence.  I don't remember the exact punchline of the study, but the method was cool.  They studied anti-vaxxers because they wanted something that wasn't associated with a particular political viewpoint but was similarly strongly held.  They could find anti-vaxxers from both extremes of the political spectrum.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I've had two but I may stop there. I'm a libertarian. People can get one or not. Have a blast. Try not to make a religion out of it. That's called living in a free society.
Saying 'we are running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate' is an extreme position, coming from a leader of a free society, but is not generally commented on, except by 'extremists' like Tucker Carlson.
As for the COVID vaccine being a miracle, I think it falls a bit short of things like penicillin, coronary bypass surgery. It's more like the flu vaccine. Maybe a little more efficacious than the flu vaccine. I got the flu vaccine two years ago then got whacked. Temperature was 103. I still get them. I have asthma.
I just subbed yesterday for a colleague who is home with a breakthrough bout of COVID. He was fully vaccinated and caught it anyway.

Oh my goodness.  I don't know where you got any of that from what I actually wrote.

It's not an interpretation of what you wrote. It's just a continuing of the discussion. I'll skip the quotation next time. That was just to show that I read you. People using the 'ignore' function 'round here and all.
I sometimes read people I have on the ignore setting. Even when it's painful. For example this:

Also, since anti-vaxers tend to also subscribe to obsolete notions of male gender roles, with the man of the house being the supporter of the traditional family unit, one might think that he would at least have life insurance to cover his family, in case God didn't protect him and he loses a round of anti-vax-roulette.

...is in the same category with 'showing up on time is racist.'

But it would be interesting if there are wokelings who are against anyone getting vaccinated and there are wokelings who are against anyone being able to not get vaccinated, and they met up and destroyed each other.

[Puget]

I read about a study of how people change (or don't change) their strongly held opinions when presented with evidence.  I don't remember the exact punchline of the study, but the method was cool.  They studied anti-vaxxers because they wanted something that wasn't associated with a particular political viewpoint but was similarly strongly held.  They could find anti-vaxxers from both extremes of the political spectrum.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I've had two but I may stop there. I'm a libertarian. People can get one or not. Have a blast. Try not to make a religion out of it. That's called living in a free society.
Saying 'we are running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate' is an extreme position, coming from a leader of a free society, but is not generally commented on, except by 'extremists' like Tucker Carlson.
As for the COVID vaccine being a miracle, I think it falls a bit short of things like penicillin, coronary bypass surgery. It's more like the flu vaccine. Maybe a little more efficacious than the flu vaccine. I got the flu vaccine two years ago then got whacked. Temperature was 103. I still get them. I have asthma.
I just subbed yesterday for a colleague who is home with a breakthrough bout of COVID. He was fully vaccinated and caught it anyway.

Oh my goodness.  I don't know where you got any of that from what I actually wrote.

I'm sure it is useless to try to inform mahagonny of anything and I should probably stop, but the mRNA covid vaccines are *way* more efficacious than flu vaccines, even in a good year (remember, they have to guess what flu strains will be circulating way in advance, because *unlike mRNA vaccines* they have to be grown in eggs way in advance). Yes, there are still break-through infections, like with any vaccine (but was your colleague boosted? Much rarer after boosting), but efficacy against hospitalization and death is high.

Current estimates are that vaccines have saved a million lives in the US so far, and that would be much higher if everyone had been vaccinated! Most covid deaths are now preventable.

When people like me say we're running out of patience with people who won't vaccinate we're mostly saying we're tired of having to alter our own lives because some people, for reasons that make no sense, would apparently rather die than get vaccinated.
And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

[mahagonny]

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.

[pgher]

My son's college has instituted a requirement that all faculty, staff, and students receive a booster by a certain date in January. Students also have to provide a negative test in order to resume studies in the spring.

Meanwhile, my college was originally going to comply with the executive order requiring federal contractors to have their employees vaccinated (only employees, not students) but stopped when a judge issued an injunction.

[aside]

My son's college has instituted a requirement that all faculty, staff, and students receive a booster by a certain date in January. Students also have to provide a negative test in order to resume studies in the spring.

Meanwhile, my college was originally going to comply with the executive order requiring federal contractors to have their employees vaccinated (only employees, not students) but stopped when a judge issued an injunction.

Mine did this as well.

[Puget]

My son's college has instituted a requirement that all faculty, staff, and students receive a booster by a certain date in January. Students also have to provide a negative test in order to resume studies in the spring.

Meanwhile, my college was originally going to comply with the executive order requiring federal contractors to have their employees vaccinated (only employees, not students) but stopped when a judge issued an injunction.

Mine did this as well.

Here as well. They've done several booster clinics on campus so a high proportion have already gotten theirs. The rest have until early February, or one month after their 6 month eligibility date if it is later.

For those interested in learning more about boosters and why they are so important, I thought this was a good article: https://www.statnews.com/2021/12/15/will-we-always-need-covid-19-boosters-experts-have-theories/

Short version: The immune system doesn't respond to a booster just like to a primary dose-- because it is re-encountering the antigen after the initial doses lead to creation of memory B cells, the booster generates a much broader antibody response. That is, with a booster you make antibodies that will be effective against multiple variants. This is probably why boosters seem to be so effective against omicron, and why we probably don't need an omicron specific booster-- it's not just that they were more recent, but that they produce more cross-immunity. This is also probably why the answer to the question in the article title is "no"-- there may turn out to be benefit from a forth dose, but once the immune response has matured, it will probably suffice (unless there is real immune escape from another variant, in which case a variant specific booster will be needed. Good news is with mRNA technology we could have on in 90 days).

Really short version: Immune systems are amazing! Get your booster!

[Anon1787]

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.

Obese people who end up with diabetes don't have a contagious disease that can overwhelm hospitals in a matter of weeks. Now you could argue that hospitals should put unvaccinated people at the bottom of the priority list so that people with other diseases can still receive a more normal level of care, but I doubt that many unvaccinated people are willing to accept that consequence if they catch Covid and require hospitalization.

[dismalist]

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.

Obese people who end up with diabetes don't have a contagious disease that can overwhelm hospitals in a matter of weeks. Now you could argue that hospitals should put unvaccinated people at the bottom of the priority list so that people with other diseases can still receive a more normal level of care, but I doubt that many unvaccinated people are willing to accept that consequence if they catch Covid and require hospitalization.

The above discussion has moved from disease spillovers to money spillovers. Even if hospitals can't take the non-covid cases on account of the covid cases overwhelming systems, a bigger health care sector would do the trick! No different in principle from obesity or diabetes. Just pay, or not. Whatever one likes, votes for or against, or whatever is one's taste.

What is being forgotten is that the vaccines have ended the most serious parts of the epidemiological problem, the disease spillover, the stuff that kills us. What's left is the kind of garbage diseases we have floating around  in the atmosphere anyway. Should emergency rooms have to treat those with flu, or the effects of diabetes? The law says yes. It is not concerned with the cause.

[Given all the other crap in the US health system, my personal opinion is "yes" as well. Others may have a different opinion, but it won't be about chancing a cause of death, on which we all agree.]

[mahagonny]

And yes it does affect other people even if we did stop trying to take precautions to protect the unvaccinated--just look at all the hospitals that are delaying treatment for other conditions because they are full of mostly unvaccinated covid patients.

Sure it does. That's what living in a society is. The habits of others affect you. For example, obese individuals drive up health care premiums. I haven't proposed doing anything about that.

Obese people who end up with diabetes don't have a contagious disease that can overwhelm hospitals in a matter of weeks. Now you could argue that hospitals should put unvaccinated people at the bottom of the priority list so that people with other diseases can still receive a more normal level of care, but I doubt that many unvaccinated people are willing to accept that consequence if they catch Covid and require hospitalization.

...Yet it doesn't matter whether people who avoid unhealthy habits such as poor diet are willing to accept the lifelong consequence of higher premiums to cover the high amount of treatments for hip and knee replacement, diabetes, heart disease, bypass surgery, etc. that the unfortunate folks with chronic weight issues are much more likely to need. If these people without the weight problems want health insurance they will pay what it costs. We don't really run it like auto insurance where the person who drives  badly pays more because he causes more than his share of calamity. So how would it be consistent to require vaccinations, as some want the government to do?  We have already accepted that people can live unhealthily and society does its best, together, after the fact, to clean up the mess.
Also, letting the government control your behavior to this degree is a slippery slope in my arrogant opinion. Especially considering the nutty ideas some of the democrats entertain. For example, if we let that 'genius' (according to NPR, who now abuses the reputation it once earned as a reliable news organization in favor of partisan propagandizing) Ibram Kendi have his way, his cult gets to decide which mission statement, individual's utterance or policy is implicated (according to the cult, no verification through data provided nor even asked for) in producing a racially unequal outcome and require it to be silenced or changed to what they approve. And other insanity. Of course, people who don't care for this approach could resign their government bureaucracy positions, leaving government to be run completely by the woke movement and cults that they elect. Which they might as well, because their expertise will already have been subjugated to a radical agenda.
So, even if the government requiring vaccinations were a good idea, it's too late, because other tyranny being floated would then more likely get a green light.
ETA: There are, of course, some among us who would be happy to give up all freedom. They are known as 'husbands.'    Thinking for oneself involves work.

[kaysixteen]

The pandemic is going on two years by now, and we just passed the 1-year anniversary of the introduction of the first vax.  We now know 1) the things work, really well, 2) there are no appreciable side effects from them, and 3) almost all the current covid deaths and serious hospitalization-requiring cases are in the unvaxxed.   Add this to the depressing ability of the covid virus to mutate much more effectively in a semi-vaxxed population, and to the reality that we still cannot vax small children or people with medical reasons prohibiting it (I have a disabled friend who cannot take it due to many crippling allergies, for instance), and the pandemic seems destined to endure far longer than it needs to have, with all the attendant death and misery.   IOW, I am well-nigh done with 'libertarian' evasions here-- as an aside it does sicken me how much libertarianism, generally an atheistic phenomenon anyhow, has infected my evangelical coreligionists.   I am reminded of one Union general who hailed from Virginia (guy's name escapes me) who was one of a decent-sized number of professional US Army officers from the South who stayed loyal to the Union, who said 'I am sick of hearing about States' Rights-- what about the Federal Government's Rights' (paraphrase).   I am sick and tired myself about hearing about individual rights not to vax-- what about society's rights to save lives and hopefully speed up the end of the pandemic?

[mahagonny]

Believe it or not, kaysixteen I get it. However...
Well, I'm sick and tired or hearing about women's rights to control their body. If something inside you is moving and it's not you doing it, then there's one explanation. It's alive. So what happened to society's right to protect the innocent. And now, suddenly, it's paramount?
Social media and other modern phenomena (including this forum), partisan news outlets screaming at you 24/7, etc. have accelerated our exposure to high pitched rhetoric, contact with strangers and our public debate. So we're all getting sick and tired of something. In many cases, each other.
As for me, sick and tired of academics with relatively cushy jobs that provide sick day pay and health insurance telling temp workers they need to arrange their schedules in order to get additional vaccines, when some of us have different outlooks. You don't know me. I could be a suicide attempt survivor.
etc.

OK, someone else's turn next.

[Caracal]

Believe it or not, kaysixteen I get it. However...
Well, I'm sick and tired or hearing about women's rights to control their body. If something inside you is moving and it's not you doing it, then there's one explanation. It's alive. So what happened to society's right to protect the innocent. And now, suddenly, it's paramount?
Social media and other modern phenomena (including this forum), partisan news outlets screaming at you 24/7, etc. have accelerated our exposure to high pitched rhetoric, contact with strangers and our public debate. So we're all getting sick and tired of something. In many cases, each other.
As for me, sick and tired of academics with relatively cushy jobs that provide sick day pay and health insurance telling temp workers they need to arrange their schedules in order to get additional vaccines, when some of us have different outlooks. You don't know me. I could be a suicide attempt survivor.
etc.

OK, someone else's turn next.

No, I'm good...

[newprofwife]

Just got the booster. There was a mixup at the site so I had to mix it up. I told the nurse to give me whatever she had (except J &J). So far, no symptoms.

My husband got his booster yesterday too and he feels fine. He had a fever during the second shot and was down for the count so we are glad that he is feeling fine.

We had hoped that the summer would have been "hot girl summer" being vaxxed all but we all know how that turned out.

Yes, I feel a little like a lab rat with seeing how the mixed vaccines go but this is the choice I had to take. I'd rather be a lab rat than a plague rat. When I got the shots, I was scared but I kept thinking of all those kids and parents in the 50s/the 60s who were brave trailblazers and took the "experimental" polio shot.

I work in person with all the kids and am so glad to have the booster and the flu shot. I am also so glad to work in a place that has mask and vaccine mandates.

None of my co-workers or students are dead from Covid which is good news. We made it to the end of the semester and survived.

Now that I'm boosted, I do plan to go out to bars and fly and see family but I will continue to mask up in crowded indoor places.     

   

[Puget]

Yes, I feel a little like a lab rat with seeing how the mixed vaccines go but this is the choice I had to take.

Good news-- there is actually some data (consistent with how we know the immune system works) that mixing is beneficial. Seeing slightly different version of the antigen seems to help develop broader immunity. I chose to mix for that reason.

[nebo113]

Thanks to newprofwife....

I'd rather be a lab rat than a plague rat.