2020 Elections

[Descartes]

It's striking how few people are on the fence this time around. Or maybe those who are just keep quiet. I wouldn't blame them, if so.

There are perhaps twenty actual racists in the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/20/us/hate-groups-rise.html -- more than twenty I'd reckon.

Are you seriously citing the Southern Poverty Law Center as a legitimate source?  Even the Left acknowledges that the SPLC are ridiculous frauds.  Here's a fine take-down in Current Affairs.  Feel free to skip to the section entitled "Focusing on the Wrong Thing."

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/the-southern-poverty-law-center-is-everything-thats-wrong-with-liberalism

This was educational, thank you. Though broadly I still trust NYT, so I trusted them in this case to do their due diligence.

However, I still think you are grossly underestimating the amount of hatred and racism that still exist in this country (and elsewhere). Just spend any amount of time on the internet.

Actual racism or "racism?"

[Parasaurolophus]

A distinction without much difference, I think.

[marshwiggle]

A distinction without much difference, I think.

Would you include the Smithsonian infographic which considered hard work, self-reliance, respect of authority and the nuclear family  as attributes of white culture?

[polly_mer]

A distinction without much difference, I think.

That depends.  I care nothing about BLM or defunding the police because those aren't the pressing issues in our area.  However, flatly saying in public that those issues are so far down the list that they're irrelevant isn't going to go well and will lead to accusations of 'racism'.

Even pointing out that All Lives Matter is a much better rallying cry where we are because we have the reservations, a majority Hispanic population, and a big first-generation immigrant population that is light on Europeans is going to be met with accusations of 'racism' because Black Lives Matter more, even while being only 1% or less of the population here.

Much frustration exists here because diversity only means African American and gender while ignoring 80% of our population.

[Parasaurolophus]

A distinction without much difference, I think.

Would you include the Smithsonian infographic which considered hard work, self-reliance, respect of authority and the nuclear family  as attributes of white culture?

I don't understand the question, or its relation to my remark. Would I include that in what?

[ciao_yall]

A distinction without much difference, I think.

That depends.  I care nothing about BLM or defunding the police because those aren't the pressing issues in our area.  However, flatly saying in public that those issues are so far down the list that they're irrelevant isn't going to go well and will lead to accusations of 'racism'.

Even pointing out that All Lives Matter is a much better rallying cry where we are because we have the reservations, a majority Hispanic population, and a big first-generation immigrant population that is light on Europeans is going to be met with accusations of 'racism' because Black Lives Matter more, even while being only 1% or less of the population here.

Much frustration exists here because diversity only means African American and gender while ignoring 80% of our population.

Well, 51% of the US population is female, so there's gender diversity right there.

And, of the 49% males, 24% of them are non-White-alone, so that makes another 12%.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US,CA/PST045219

Of the remaining white males, 49% * 76 % * 10% are probably gay, so add 4%.

That means 51% + 12% + 4% = 63% of the population is immediately affected by the key diversity issues. And we haven't brought up intersectionality, religion, disability, and others.

Still, I think that is a healthy % of the population that should be concerned about diversity issues, don't you?

[mamselle]

My friend who registers for Trump events so she can NOT attend, and thus bring the headcount down, just got notification of a change of venue.

So now she can NOT go there, instead...

M.

[polly_mer]

A distinction without much difference, I think.

That depends.  I care nothing about BLM or defunding the police because those aren't the pressing issues in our area.  However, flatly saying in public that those issues are so far down the list that they're irrelevant isn't going to go well and will lead to accusations of 'racism'.

Even pointing out that All Lives Matter is a much better rallying cry where we are because we have the reservations, a majority Hispanic population, and a big first-generation immigrant population that is light on Europeans is going to be met with accusations of 'racism' because Black Lives Matter more, even while being only 1% or less of the population here.

Much frustration exists here because diversity only means African American and gender while ignoring 80% of our population.

Well, 51% of the US population is female, so there's gender diversity right there.

And, of the 49% males, 24% of them are non-White-alone, so that makes another 12%.

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US,CA/PST045219

Of the remaining white males, 49% * 76 % * 10% are probably gay, so add 4%.

That means 51% + 12% + 4% = 63% of the population is immediately affected by the key diversity issues. And we haven't brought up intersectionality, religion, disability, and others.

Still, I think that is a healthy % of the population that should be concerned about diversity issues, don't you?

You've misunderstood.  Where I am, having the focus be on diversity strictly in terms of Black or trans, the main national discussions that show up in the mass media, leaves out basically everyone here.  The US composite numbers are completely irrelevant to our regional communities. Even the woman numbers don't work because the largest employer is so heavy on engineers.

The feminist white woman college graduate concerns really don't matter when the underlying problems are lack of running water in houses and being so far from good schools that 'no one' goes to college.  And that happens in the same county where most of the adults with good jobs came from elsewhere with graduate degrees.

Counting noses by genitals and/or skin tone completely ignores the actions that have to be taken to help improve opportunities in the region.

Add the true problems of rural poverty in a place that doesn't do agriculture because we are also short on water and diversity concerns as city folks who focus on Black lives is just another slap in the face by the out-of-touch liberal elites.

If we're really talking diversity as though it matters, then BLM is so beside the point here.

[Parasaurolophus]

I think that if issues like civil rights or racism are genuinely not a problem where you are (as in: you're not wrong in thinking that they're not, or that they're legitimately low on the priority list), then they're not a problem where you are. But if the fact that they're not a problem where you are impedes the ability of people where you are to recognize that they're a problem elsewhere or more generally, and to understand why, then it turns out, actually, that they really are a problem where you are.

[marshwiggle]

A distinction without much difference, I think.

Would you include the Smithsonian infographic which considered hard work, self-reliance, respect of authority and the nuclear family  as attributes of white culture?

I don't understand the question, or its relation to my remark. Would I include that in what?

I assumed you meant that "racism" (i.e., everything that is labelled racism by all kinds of activists) and racism (i.e. people who actually treat people differently based on the colour of their skin) are the same thing. In that case, I was wondering if you agreed that all of those things the Smithsonian listed as parts of "white" culture are indeed are really not parts of toher cultures as well.

To be blunt, was the infographic "racist", racist, or none of the above?

[little bongo]

Why is the answer important? If we prove (or re-prove) that, in the words of the song from the show "Avenue Q," "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist," that doesn't discount the (often uncomfortable) personal and social work that we all need to do.

I've been to a couple of BLM protests in my community. We chanted for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, "I can't breathe." We sang, "We Shall Overcome." And I saw a community who, at least for a while, believed it--believed we could overcome. And the really neat thing that's happening? Campuses are including discussions. Energized students are trying to shake things up. And if we actually figure out how to follow and put into practice the tenets of BLM, guess what? We ALL win. How about them apples?

Are there bullies, rudesbies, and rioters that are tagging along? Yeah. Bad on them. That's, unfortunately, what bullies, rudesbies, and rioters do. The ideals are always going to be better than the people who try to enact them. But I think trying is better than not trying.

A distinction without much difference, I think.

Would you include the Smithsonian infographic which considered hard work, self-reliance, respect of authority and the nuclear family  as attributes of white culture?

I don't understand the question, or its relation to my remark. Would I include that in what?

I assumed you meant that "racism" (i.e., everything that is labelled racism by all kinds of activists) and racism (i.e. people who actually treat people differently based on the colour of their skin) are the same thing. In that case, I was wondering if you agreed that all of those things the Smithsonian listed as parts of "white" culture are indeed are really not parts of toher cultures as well.

To be blunt, was the infographic "racist", racist, or none of the above?

[marshwiggle]

Why is the answer important? If we prove (or re-prove) that, in the words of the song from the show "Avenue Q," "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist," that doesn't discount the (often uncomfortable) personal and social work that we all need to do.

I've been to a couple of BLM protests in my community. We chanted for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, "I can't breathe." We sang, "We Shall Overcome." And I saw a community who, at least for a while, believed it--believed we could overcome. And the really neat thing that's happening? Campuses are including discussions. Energized students are trying to shake things up. And if we actually figure out how to follow and put into practice the tenets of BLM, guess what? We ALL win. How about them apples?

The important question is how much chanting and singing actually translates into real community service at homeless shelters, in after school programs, etc. to actually make communities better. My gut feeling is that you won't get nearly the number of people doing those things, even for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, as you get standing in a crowd saying "Look what a good person I am!"

Are there bullies, rudesbies, and rioters that are tagging along? Yeah. Bad on them. That's, unfortunately, what bullies, rudesbies, and rioters do. The ideals are always going to be better than the people who try to enact them. But I think trying is better than not trying.

The sad truth is the cities that are having the ongoing problems with rioters are the ones where the leadership is most sympathetic to BLM, because they refuse to draw a sharp line between peaceful protest and violence.

[polly_mer]

https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/ for those who just don't know.  The red/blue map at the county level is amazing.

The question for many is why we would care about what's happening a thousand miles away as a series of one offs when we have US citizens within a hour's drive who:

* don't have electricity
* don't have running water
* don't have medical facilities
* don't have grocery stories within fifty miles

There are almost six hundred sovereign entities in the US (AKA Indian tribes) that serve as examples of serious systemic racism.

But sure, all us rural people should focus on the national issues instead of the local ones that we can actually modify and help our neighbors.  We have more people of each of several tribes here than we have African Americans.

If we just classify local people as poor/not poor, then we have a huge poverty rate that has zero African Americans, but many tribal folks, Latinos, and Caucasians of various national origins including outside Europe.  Addressing our inequities means knowing much more than what the national media shows.

It's almost as though only urban lives matter during the national discussion, especially when coupled with the information that the tribes had to sue the federal government to get the COVID money they were allocated.

Mark Charles is running for president (https://www.markcharles2020.com/about), but you'd never know it from the mass media.

In fact, the US currently has 4 main party candidates per Ballotpedia and that doesn't count Charles or the Articles of Unity folks who are still working on a candidate (https://profiles.articlesofunity.org/)';

[wuggish]

There are almost six hundred sovereign entities in the US (AKA Indian tribes) that serve as examples of serious systemic racism.

But sure, all us rural people should focus on the national issues instead of the local ones that we can actually modify and help our neighbors.  We have more people of each of several tribes here than we have African Americans.

If we just classify local people as poor/not poor, then we have a huge poverty rate that has zero African Americans, but many tribal folks, Latinos, and Caucasians of various national origins including outside Europe.  Addressing our inequities means knowing much more than what the national media shows.

It's almost as though only urban lives matter during the national discussion, especially when coupled with the information that the tribes had to sue the federal government to get the COVID money they were allocated.

The concerns and interests of other marginalized American populations (rural, poor, Indigenous, non-Black POC) should absolutely be discussed more at a national level. You are raising very important points that I do not intend to dismiss.

But to conclude that the current conversation does not or should not apply to your community because there are few Black people is illogical. The lack of Black people in the rural Midwest, the fact that "Black lives" and "urban lives" are used synonymously, is itself due to settlement patterns that are a result of serious systemic racism.

[Parasaurolophus]

The concerns and interests of other marginalized American populations (rural, poor, Indigenous, non-Black POC) should absolutely be discussed more at a national level. You are raising very important points that I do not intend to dismiss.

But to conclude that the current conversation does not or should not apply to your community because there are few Black people is illogical. The lack of Black people in the rural Midwest, the fact that "Black lives" and "urban lives" are used synonymously, is itself due to settlement patterns that are a result of serious systemic racism.

The concern for other peoples--which is perfectly legitimate, and often entirely necessary--also has more force as a critique of other protest movements when the people leveling that critique are involved in advocating for those other people. Too often, it smacks more of a way to excuse one's lack of participation in any such movements. If one isn't actually interested in advocating for anyone, then one (another?) wonders why one bothers to be so critical of people who are simply advocating for their rights. It's something that actually matters, so it doesn't really seem like an appropriate target for intellectual sparring for its own sake.

(To be clear, I'm not accusing anyone here of doing that. It's just a pattern I worry about with respect to the role these kinds of points play in discourse about protest movements. And, as an aside, I think there's a strong case to be made here, in Canada, that recent BLM-solidarity action has unjustifiably eclipsed advocacy for Indigenous issues, including police violence against Indigenous peoples, which is much more pronounced [although police violence against Black Canadians is also a real and pronounced problem]. But solidarity isn't and shouldn't be zero-sum.)