2020 Elections

[writingprof]

I mean, I'm a white male in my late 30's who lives in a rustbelt/Midwest/bellweather state who has always voted Democrat from age 19 + but who voted for Trump in 2016 and is going to do so again.

In Reddit parlance, "AMA."

Do your colleagues know?  How, specifically, would they have you fired if they did?

[lightning]

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kindergartener who breaks the toy when it becomes some other child's turn to play with it -- the "if I can't have what I believe I deserve, regardless of whatever terrible personal choices I've made, then burn down the whole system" mentality. They blame people who are similarly poor and structurally disadvantaged but non-white for their own circumstances and are happy to destroy the very institutions they themselves are dependent on. It's one version of crabs in a bucket syndrome: preference for blowing up the whole bucket with themselves in it to letting a few crabs escape. Trump, being a sociopath, has an inherent understanding of how to use this to his advantage.

I have my own version of this, but yours is rated G. Mine would get an R rating if it were a college coming of age movie.

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kids who didn't get invited to the big party. So these kids get high/drunk and crash the party wearing wearing t-shirts that say "Eat Me" or other non-conformist garb that projects their non-conformism/rebellion and outward rejection of the norms that left them out of the party, and they go through the party trying to be cleverly obnoxious or at the very least yelling "Hail Satan." Their night ends by defecating in the pool, before getting kicked out.

They really do see themselves as the down-trodden caddies in Caddyshack or the members of Delta House in Animal House. Like in those two movies, a heroic deed is to ruin the party when they are not invited. Today, the big party is the global technologically connected diverse world where some people are simply not capable of thriving, and they were not invited to the party. All they can do is defecate in the pool and ruin the parade, so at least the party isn't as fun and the un-invited feel a sense of empowerment in ruining the party where they were not invited, giving them a temporary sense of equality. Many of us are Dean Wormer, and Trump supporters think they are Delta House.

[dismalist]

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kindergartener who breaks the toy when it becomes some other child's turn to play with it -- the "if I can't have what I believe I deserve, regardless of whatever terrible personal choices I've made, then burn down the whole system" mentality. They blame people who are similarly poor and structurally disadvantaged but non-white for their own circumstances and are happy to destroy the very institutions they themselves are dependent on. It's one version of crabs in a bucket syndrome: preference for blowing up the whole bucket with themselves in it to letting a few crabs escape. Trump, being a sociopath, has an inherent understanding of how to use this to his advantage.

I have my own version of this, but yours is rated G. Mine would get an R rating if it were a college coming of age movie.

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kids who didn't get invited to the big party. So these kids get high/drunk and crash the party wearing wearing t-shirts that say "Eat Me" or other non-conformist garb that projects their non-conformism/rebellion and outward rejection of the norms that left them out of the party, and they go through the party trying to be cleverly obnoxious or at the very least yelling "Hail Satan." Their night ends by defecating in the pool, before getting kicked out.

They really do see themselves as the down-trodden caddies in Caddyshack or the members of Delta House in Animal House. Like in those two movies, a heroic deed is to ruin the party when they are not invited. Today, the big party is the global technologically connected diverse world where some people are simply not capable of thriving, and they were not invited to the party. All they can do is defecate in the pool and ruin the parade, so at least the party isn't as fun and the un-invited feel a sense of empowerment in ruining the party where they were not invited, giving them a temporary sense of equality. Many of us are Dean Wormer, and Trump supporters think they are Delta House.

Does anyone with beliefs like that think a presidential election can be won?

[marshwiggle]

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kindergartener who breaks the toy when it becomes some other child's turn to play with it -- the "if I can't have what I believe I deserve, regardless of whatever terrible personal choices I've made, then burn down the whole system" mentality. They blame people who are similarly poor and structurally disadvantaged but non-white for their own circumstances and are happy to destroy the very institutions they themselves are dependent on.

Coudln't this almost equally be said of the BLM "ally" rioters?

[quasihumanist]

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kindergartener who breaks the toy when it becomes some other child's turn to play with it -- the "if I can't have what I believe I deserve, regardless of whatever terrible personal choices I've made, then burn down the whole system" mentality. They blame people who are similarly poor and structurally disadvantaged but non-white for their own circumstances and are happy to destroy the very institutions they themselves are dependent on. It's one version of crabs in a bucket syndrome: preference for blowing up the whole bucket with themselves in it to letting a few crabs escape. Trump, being a sociopath, has an inherent understanding of how to use this to his advantage.

I have my own version of this, but yours is rated G. Mine would get an R rating if it were a college coming of age movie.

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kids who didn't get invited to the big party. So these kids get high/drunk and crash the party wearing wearing t-shirts that say "Eat Me" or other non-conformist garb that projects their non-conformism/rebellion and outward rejection of the norms that left them out of the party, and they go through the party trying to be cleverly obnoxious or at the very least yelling "Hail Satan." Their night ends by defecating in the pool, before getting kicked out.

They really do see themselves as the down-trodden caddies in Caddyshack or the members of Delta House in Animal House. Like in those two movies, a heroic deed is to ruin the party when they are not invited. Today, the big party is the global technologically connected diverse world where some people are simply not capable of thriving, and they were not invited to the party. All they can do is defecate in the pool and ruin the parade, so at least the party isn't as fun and the un-invited feel a sense of empowerment in ruining the party where they were not invited, giving them a temporary sense of equality. Many of us are Dean Wormer, and Trump supporters think they are Delta House.

If we can't figure out a way of including the disabled in our society, we deserve what we get.

We should have nuclear war, because God deserves a fresh start.

[spork]

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kindergartener who breaks the toy when it becomes some other child's turn to play with it -- the "if I can't have what I believe I deserve, regardless of whatever terrible personal choices I've made, then burn down the whole system" mentality. They blame people who are similarly poor and structurally disadvantaged but non-white for their own circumstances and are happy to destroy the very institutions they themselves are dependent on.

Coudln't this almost equally be said of the BLM "ally" rioters?

In the sense that destructive actions assuage their egos, yes, but 1) they are far less numerous than media outlets like to portray and orders of magnitude fewer than Trump supporters, and 2) many of them are opportunistic vandals who simply enjoy starting a riot and use "fighting the system" as cover, a mirror image of the eyeglass-wearing, AR-15-toting young males who find it exciting to "patrol" in the midst of demonstrations and shoot people.

[mahagonny]

So if someone of Trump's ilk were the democrat, I suppose he'd be 'dog whistling' to the looters something to the effect of 'yeah man. You and me. Peas in a pod.' Is that the idea? Would/will Biden kick them out of the tent? I am asking because I am wondering.
Someone should, theoretically, be courting the looter vote. If they haven't lost their right to vote, they count.
Biden says 'rioting is not demonstrating.' But say this often enough, and some kind of fault line in the coalition will appear. Even as tepid as it is.
Of course there are already some who are supporting them, e.g. 'it's legitimate. It's reparations. The stores have insurance.' [victimless crime]. They're out of the closet.
Whereas, who says 'sure...white supremacist here. Present.'

[lightning]

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kindergartener who breaks the toy when it becomes some other child's turn to play with it -- the "if I can't have what I believe I deserve, regardless of whatever terrible personal choices I've made, then burn down the whole system" mentality. They blame people who are similarly poor and structurally disadvantaged but non-white for their own circumstances and are happy to destroy the very institutions they themselves are dependent on. It's one version of crabs in a bucket syndrome: preference for blowing up the whole bucket with themselves in it to letting a few crabs escape. Trump, being a sociopath, has an inherent understanding of how to use this to his advantage.

I have my own version of this, but yours is rated G. Mine would get an R rating if it were a college coming of age movie.

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kids who didn't get invited to the big party. So these kids get high/drunk and crash the party wearing wearing t-shirts that say "Eat Me" or other non-conformist garb that projects their non-conformism/rebellion and outward rejection of the norms that left them out of the party, and they go through the party trying to be cleverly obnoxious or at the very least yelling "Hail Satan." Their night ends by defecating in the pool, before getting kicked out.

They really do see themselves as the down-trodden caddies in Caddyshack or the members of Delta House in Animal House. Like in those two movies, a heroic deed is to ruin the party when they are not invited. Today, the big party is the global technologically connected diverse world where some people are simply not capable of thriving, and they were not invited to the party. All they can do is defecate in the pool and ruin the parade, so at least the party isn't as fun and the un-invited feel a sense of empowerment in ruining the party where they were not invited, giving them a temporary sense of equality. Many of us are Dean Wormer, and Trump supporters think they are Delta House.

Does anyone with beliefs like that think a presidential election can be won?

Oh definitely. But Dems have to stop being so pre-occoupied with substance and instead focus on winning.

Those rust belt voters who flipped in 2016 can be brought back. Paint the companies that automated and outsourced their jobs away (and their dignity) as the enemy (not China--that's the Xenophobe's scapegoat, so it can't be the Dems boogeyman). Make those companies PAY for outsourcing and automating their jobs away through a mandatory economic re-development. But you can't call it something that sounds like socialism or re-distribution of wealth or U.B.I., even though it is a tax (because then it sounds like a handout, and is then not music to the ears of the HEWM who stakes his dignity in being the self-sufficient provider). The mechanism has to sound punitive & corrective to the companies that wronged the HEWM and their rust-belt towns, in the ears of the HEWM. I don't think this is too far-fetched. If a corporation wants to outsource/automate, let them, but it has to come at a cost to their parade. Paint the taxing mechanism as the Baby Ruth that gets thrown into the swimming pool. Think of it as a domestic tariff that gets skimmed off the extra profits from outsourcing/automation as the laid off HEWM's "Eat Me" shirt, before the remaining profits head to the stockholders. Now, this is an overly simplistic solution, but for purposes of winning an election, this is what the HEWM wants to hear. Trump listens to the HEWM. The Dems do not. If the Dems truly listened to the rust belt, they would know that it would not take much to also offer a cultural identity (one that is not racist), a mechanism to stick it to da man when the boogeyman takes away their livelihood, and most importantly dignity. Heck, the Dems can't even call out Trump for claiming bogus job creation in traditional manufacturing, when most of those jobs were not taken by the HEWM--those were high-tech jobs that Trump is counting as manufacturing.

My first job on the TT was in a dying rust belt town. I've seen and heard the HEWM pain first-hand. Hillary offered them a vitamin. Trump offered them a pain pill. When you are in pain, you will reach for the pain pill, even if there are known side-effects. I'm despondent because Dems are still offering vitamins . . . .

[dismalist]

Neither party is offering substance. I just wonder, truly wonder, whether the Democratic Party -- not you or me -- has any clue why it lost the last election. I don't see it having drawn any conclusions. Russia and Race [R & R :-)] will be sufficient? Good luck with that.

[quasihumanist]

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kindergartener who breaks the toy when it becomes some other child's turn to play with it -- the "if I can't have what I believe I deserve, regardless of whatever terrible personal choices I've made, then burn down the whole system" mentality. They blame people who are similarly poor and structurally disadvantaged but non-white for their own circumstances and are happy to destroy the very institutions they themselves are dependent on. It's one version of crabs in a bucket syndrome: preference for blowing up the whole bucket with themselves in it to letting a few crabs escape. Trump, being a sociopath, has an inherent understanding of how to use this to his advantage.

I have my own version of this, but yours is rated G. Mine would get an R rating if it were a college coming of age movie.

A large chunk of Trump supporters are people who are the equivalent of the kids who didn't get invited to the big party. So these kids get high/drunk and crash the party wearing wearing t-shirts that say "Eat Me" or other non-conformist garb that projects their non-conformism/rebellion and outward rejection of the norms that left them out of the party, and they go through the party trying to be cleverly obnoxious or at the very least yelling "Hail Satan." Their night ends by defecating in the pool, before getting kicked out.

They really do see themselves as the down-trodden caddies in Caddyshack or the members of Delta House in Animal House. Like in those two movies, a heroic deed is to ruin the party when they are not invited. Today, the big party is the global technologically connected diverse world where some people are simply not capable of thriving, and they were not invited to the party. All they can do is defecate in the pool and ruin the parade, so at least the party isn't as fun and the un-invited feel a sense of empowerment in ruining the party where they were not invited, giving them a temporary sense of equality. Many of us are Dean Wormer, and Trump supporters think they are Delta House.

Does anyone with beliefs like that think a presidential election can be won?

Oh definitely. But Dems have to stop being so pre-occoupied with substance and instead focus on winning.

Those rust belt voters who flipped in 2016 can be brought back. Paint the companies that automated and outsourced their jobs away (and their dignity) as the enemy (not China--that's the Xenophobe's scapegoat, so it can't be the Dems boogeyman). Make those companies PAY for outsourcing and automating their jobs away through a mandatory economic re-development. But you can't call it something that sounds like socialism or re-distribution of wealth or U.B.I., even though it is a tax (because then it sounds like a handout, and is then not music to the ears of the HEWM who stakes his dignity in being the self-sufficient provider). The mechanism has to sound punitive & corrective to the companies that wronged the HEWM and their rust-belt towns, in the ears of the HEWM. I don't think this is too far-fetched. If a corporation wants to outsource/automate, let them, but it has to come at a cost to their parade. Paint the taxing mechanism as the Baby Ruth that gets thrown into the swimming pool. Think of it as a domestic tariff that gets skimmed off the extra profits from outsourcing/automation as the laid off HEWM's "Eat Me" shirt, before the remaining profits head to the stockholders. Now, this is an overly simplistic solution, but for purposes of winning an election, this is what the HEWM wants to hear. Trump listens to the HEWM. The Dems do not. If the Dems truly listened to the rust belt, they would know that it would not take much to also offer a cultural identity (one that is not racist), a mechanism to stick it to da man when the boogeyman takes away their livelihood, and most importantly dignity. Heck, the Dems can't even call out Trump for claiming bogus job creation in traditional manufacturing, when most of those jobs were not taken by the HEWM--those were high-tech jobs that Trump is counting as manufacturing.

My first job on the TT was in a dying rust belt town. I've seen and heard the HEWM pain first-hand. Hillary offered them a vitamin. Trump offered them a pain pill. When you are in pain, you will reach for the pain pill, even if there are known side-effects. I'm despondent because Dems are still offering vitamins . . . .

There are no solutions to the automation problem.  Taxing it just means some other conglomeration of wealthy powerful people do it in some other country and take over the world, killing all of us.  That's why we're going to get nuclear war whether I'm for it or not.

[kaysixteen]

What's a HEWM?   'WM' = 'white male', presumably, but what is HE?

BTW, for those of you who are voting for Trump, or considering doing so, or even those like me, who would sooner vote for a potted plant than him, BUT also recognize why he is so appealing to the Rust Belt white working class, etc., how would you advise the Dems to act, to better their chances of getting their votes?   

[dismalist]

What's a HEWM?   'WM' = 'white male', presumably, but what is HE?

BTW, for those of you who are voting for Trump, or considering doing so, or even those like me, who would sooner vote for a potted plant than him, BUT also recognize why he is so appealing to the Rust Belt white working class, etc., how would you advise the Dems to act, to better their chances of getting their votes?

I would sooner vote for a potted plant than for Mr. Trump, too, but there are no potted plants running for office!

I could advise the Democratic Party on what policies to propose and pursue, but there is no reason they would listen. :-)

[mahagonny]

What's a HEWM?   'WM' = 'white male', presumably, but what is HE?

BTW, for those of you who are voting for Trump, or considering doing so, or even those like me, who would sooner vote for a potted plant than him, BUT also recognize why he is so appealing to the Rust Belt white working class, etc., how would you advise the Dems to act, to better their chances of getting their votes?

I don't know if old Joe can do it. He's a smooth easy talker, but a little bit scattered in his message giving. He needs to be steady and relentless and keep it simple.
Show the TV audience how offensive a person DJT is, not just with arguments, but with gut reactions, facial expressions, body language, real theatre. When Ronald Reagan talked about Jimmy Carter, it was clear that he had so little respect for him he thought he had to restrain himself in speech. Like, he just couldn't fathom a person so foolish. It was almost cruel, but masterful. He made the audience feel what he was feeling.
And Joe needs to sound reassuring. Like a leader who wants to lead you in spirit. Not just someone who wants the job. Hammer away at how Trump contrasts to our ideal of a president.
Nancy Pelosi has an interesting tactic. She says 'he knows he shouldn't be president.' Gas lighting. I don't know if she'd be a good president but I think she could neutralize him in a one-on-one contest.
I don't think you were asking me, but I had a reaction.

[lightning]

What's a HEWM?   'WM' = 'white male', presumably, but what is HE?

BTW, for those of you who are voting for Trump, or considering doing so, or even those like me, who would sooner vote for a potted plant than him, BUT also recognize why he is so appealing to the Rust Belt white working class, etc., how would you advise the Dems to act, to better their chances of getting their votes?

HEWM = High-school educated white male. I know it's not the best acronym. It was used back in the 1990s when describing the Democratic strategy of winning the votes in the middle, especially the votes of the HEWM. Back then, the HEWM saw no reason to vote for the Republican party who didn't seem to give a s**t about them because they were still considered to be the rich people who were nothing like the HEWM. Enter Bill Clinton with his southern drawl and, although insincere at its core, he seemed to listen and seemed to care. Hell, all he had to say was "I feel your pain" and he won some of their votes.

The answer to your second question is in my post. But here's another illustration:

Biden needs to visit WI, PA, IN (Ok, not, IN-they are a lost cause), MI, and OH and tell them "If I'm elected president, any company that takes away your job through automation, outsourcing, or union busting, will have to PAY YOU dearly, to do it."

No, don't get specific. No, don't offer up the how. No, don't offer any details. No, don't answer questions about possible ramifications. Do you think Trump needed to offer the specifics, the details, and the hows of how Mexico was going to pay for The Wall? Of course not.

Invite them to rallies where they burn pink slips, layoff notices, bankruptcy notices, medical bill invoices, etc and take turns taking a sledge hammer to a robot. Make them feel empowered in aligning themselves with the Dems. Galvanize them through their frustration. Scapegoat the pharmaceutical companies, the HMOs, Wall Street, the efficiency experts who recommend layoffs. Tell the HEWM that nothing is their fault. Never mind the prosperity that ensued as a result of globalization and everyone's complicity, including the HEWM who got to shop for items that became very inexpensive as a result of global supply chains, automation, and telecommunication. Make it clear to the HEWM that Trump and the Republicans gave big tax breaks to the people who laid them off. None of what I said is entirely true and has many half-baked half-truths (euphemism for lie). But, again, who cares. Truth does not get anyone elected. Furthermore, truth now needs power to be considered truth. Get the power first. So truth has a chance.  Don't offer real solutions when trying to get elected. Offer the HEWM dignity from making a simple choice between candidates. This can be done without alienating the ones that have already decided to vote straight democratic. Does this sound like the 2016 Republican election playbook? It worked for them, didn't it?

[writingprof]

There are no solutions to the automation problem.  Taxing it just means some other conglomeration of wealthy powerful people do it in some other country and take over the world, killing all of us.  That's why we're going to get nuclear war whether I'm for it or not.

Addressing the Automation Problem In Three Easy Steps

1) nuclear war
2) ?
3) profit!