2020 Elections

[mahagonny]

Yes, this example is more about class.  However, I think the discrepancy in economics in black communities cannot be completely separated from American history.

There are other examples where race is directly relevant, especially related to police activities such as carding etc.  I find it hard to understand how people do not see this.

OK, then, we see it, together. What do you propose doing about it. And I don't mean something we can do to make us like ourselves because we're trying to so something about it. I mean something that will change what's wrong....?

Reason I ask, not to be insolent, but....(1) what would actually work, long term, and assuming that can be identified, (!) who's going to pay for it. And if you say 'all white people', one of my questions is why are we taking our solutions to income inequality from academics who are getting rich off a system that adds to poverty (contingent labor) and what are they personally willing to sacrifice for positive change?

[Puget]

This is not directly related to racism and is likely a consequence of income, but the lack of funding the public school disproportionately impacts one race.  School districts and funding models in the US are just one of many examples.     

Actually, it is historically very much about racism-- when schools were forced to integrate, white families pulled their children out of the public schools and started all-white private schools.

[Kron3007]

Yes, this example is more about class.  However, I think the discrepancy in economics in black communities cannot be completely separated from American history.

There are other examples where race is directly relevant, especially related to police activities such as carding etc.  I find it hard to understand how people do not see this.

The issue is not whether people see it; it's whether that is the most productive way to address it. At the very least, by making it about race, then by definition, it doesn't potentially apply to everyone. However, by making it about economics, since peoples' situations can change in ways their race cannot, it is of potential relevance to everyone.

Yes, this example is more about class.  However, I think the discrepancy in economics in black communities cannot be completely separated from American history.

There are other examples where race is directly relevant, especially related to police activities such as carding etc.  I find it hard to understand how people do not see this.

OK, then, we see it, together. What do you propose doing about it. And I don't mean something we can do to make us like ourselves because we're trying to so something about it. I mean something that will change what's wrong....?

Reason I ask, not to be insolent, but....(1) what would actually work, long term, and assuming that can be identified, (!) who's going to pay for it. And if you say 'all white people', one of my questions is why are we taking our solutions to income inequality from academics who are getting rich off a system that adds to poverty (contingent labor) and what are they personally willing to sacrifice for positive change?

I think admitting that it exists is a great start.  Both of you seem to acknowledge it, but that is not the case for many.  I have seen countless people online saying that white privilege does not exist since they are white and poor, that they are not racist so it is not on them, etc.  Both of these points miss the point. 

I dont have all the answers and luckily i dont need to, but I think acknowledging its existence is a good start.  From there, ensuring all citizens have equal access to high quality education, medical care, etc. would also help stop the cycle from self propagating.   

For the record, I have never said "all white people" and think this needs to be addressed by all people.  Ironically, I suspect that black people also hold some of these deeply rooted views despite being black.  There was a study a while ago comparing male and female applications for academic jobs and the same CV with a male name was ranked higher than the female CV by both genders.  This is what makes this type of thing systemic.

As for contingent labour etc., I agree that it is a problem and should be addressed.  Where I am they are part of a union and we dont use them too much.  However, I suspect that funding for education needs to be increased to make this happen everywhere.  Trying to fix it without more funding seems futile.       

   

[Kron3007]

This is not directly related to racism and is likely a consequence of income, but the lack of funding the public school disproportionately impacts one race.  School districts and funding models in the US are just one of many examples.     

Actually, it is historically very much about racism-- when schools were forced to integrate, white families pulled their children out of the public schools and started all-white private schools.

Agreed.  That is why I said that class cannot be separated from history.  However, it is not a clear cut case where it is exclusively about race and there are better examples of where race is the only driver.

[dismalist]

 

lack of funding the public school

Evidence?

[marshwiggle]

I think admitting that it exists is a great start.  Both of you seem to acknowledge it, but that is not the case for many.  I have seen countless people online saying that white privilege does not exist since they are white and poor, that they are not racist so it is not on them, etc.  Both of these points miss the point. 

I dont have all the answers and luckily i dont need to, but I think acknowledging its existence is a good start.  From there, ensuring all citizens have equal access to high quality education, medical care, etc. would also help stop the cycle from self propagating.   

There are all kinds of people who are poor, whose ancestors weren't even in the country during slavery, or even during the civil rights movement, so it requires ridiculous contortions to somehow claim that their plight has to do with all that. Refugees, for example, often require language learning, and so are going to be poor at least in the short term. Thus, they will live in communities that are affordable. They will also be attracted to areas where earlier groups from their region have settled already, so therefore there will be concentrations of people from specific countries in specific neighbourhoods that has nothing to do with racism. (Unless, of course, it's those church and community groups helping them settle who are trying to keep them coralled in ethnic enclaves for nefarious purposes.)

For the record, I have never said "all white people" and think this needs to be addressed by all people.  Ironically, I suspect that black people also hold some of these deeply rooted views despite being black.  There was a study a while ago comparing male and female applications for academic jobs and the same CV with a male name was ranked higher than the female CV by both genders.  This is what makes this type of thing systemic.

OR it suggests that there is something unspecified that both male AND female academics perceive as different between male and female applicants.

Let's put this in a different context. Suppose these were resumes for ECE workers. Would it be a surprise if both men and women would more likely hire a female daycare worker?
And would it be because of sexism?

In the academic example, one of the questions that interviewers (male and female) tended to ask female candidates more than male ones was "Was your research topic your idea or your supervisor's?" (FWIW, my research topic for my Master's was my supervisor's idea, so I'm not offended by the question.) This suggests a subtle difference in perception about how men and women tend to collaborate, which the question was trying to address.

[Kron3007]

I think admitting that it exists is a great start.  Both of you seem to acknowledge it, but that is not the case for many.  I have seen countless people online saying that white privilege does not exist since they are white and poor, that they are not racist so it is not on them, etc.  Both of these points miss the point. 

I dont have all the answers and luckily i dont need to, but I think acknowledging its existence is a good start.  From there, ensuring all citizens have equal access to high quality education, medical care, etc. would also help stop the cycle from self propagating.   

There are all kinds of people who are poor, whose ancestors weren't even in the country during slavery, or even during the civil rights movement, so it requires ridiculous contortions to somehow claim that their plight has to do with all that. Refugees, for example, often require language learning, and so are going to be poor at least in the short term. Thus, they will live in communities that are affordable. They will also be attracted to areas where earlier groups from their region have settled already, so therefore there will be concentrations of people from specific countries in specific neighbourhoods that has nothing to do with racism. (Unless, of course, it's those church and community groups helping them settle who are trying to keep them coralled in ethnic enclaves for nefarious purposes.)

For the record, I have never said "all white people" and think this needs to be addressed by all people.  Ironically, I suspect that black people also hold some of these deeply rooted views despite being black.  There was a study a while ago comparing male and female applications for academic jobs and the same CV with a male name was ranked higher than the female CV by both genders.  This is what makes this type of thing systemic.

OR it suggests that there is something unspecified that both male AND female academics perceive as different between male and female applicants.

Let's put this in a different context. Suppose these were resumes for ECE workers. Would it be a surprise if both men and women would more likely hire a female daycare worker?
And would it be because of sexism?

In the academic example, one of the questions that interviewers (male and female) tended to ask female candidates more than male ones was "Was your research topic your idea or your supervisor's?" (FWIW, my research topic for my Master's was my supervisor's idea, so I'm not offended by the question.) This suggests a subtle difference in perception about how men and women tend to collaborate, which the question was trying to address.

I didn't say their plight has anything to do with that.  Sometimes the solution to one problem helps address others as well.  I support social programs because they help with many different social problems.

As for the male vs female, it definitely comes down to our perceived difference that males and females have.  That is the whole point, thanks for agreeing?  They are being judged based on our systemic bias rather than the merit of the application.  Your example of the daycare worker is the same, they are being judged based on system bias rather than anything they did.  In these cases it is gender, but the principle is the same.

[Kron3007]

lack of funding the public school

Evidence?

As I mentioned, this was a radio program and this is what they told me.  If you want to dive deeper, Google is your friend.

[jimbogumbo]

lack of funding the public school

Evidence?

What? Lack of funding for public schools has clearly been shown to disproportionately effect the poor. African Americans are disproportionately poor relative to white Americans. What more evidence would you want to see?

[marshwiggle]

For the record, I have never said "all white people" and think this needs to be addressed by all people.  Ironically, I suspect that black people also hold some of these deeply rooted views despite being black.  There was a study a while ago comparing male and female applications for academic jobs and the same CV with a male name was ranked higher than the female CV by both genders.  This is what makes this type of thing systemic.

OR it suggests that there is something unspecified that both male AND female academics perceive as different between male and female applicants.

Let's put this in a different context. Suppose these were resumes for ECE workers. Would it be a surprise if both men and women would more likely hire a female daycare worker?
And would it be because of sexism?

In the academic example, one of the questions that interviewers (male and female) tended to ask female candidates more than male ones was "Was your research topic your idea or your supervisor's?" (FWIW, my research topic for my Master's was my supervisor's idea, so I'm not offended by the question.) This suggests a subtle difference in perception about how men and women tend to collaborate, which the question was trying to address.

I didn't say their plight has anything to do with that.  Sometimes the solution to one problem helps address others as well.  I support social programs because they help with many different social problems.

As for the male vs female, it definitely comes down to our perceived difference that males and females have.  That is the whole point, thanks for agreeing?  They are being judged based on our systemic bias rather than the merit of the application.  Your example of the daycare worker is the same, they are being judged based on system bias rather than anything they did.  In these cases it is gender, but the principle is the same.

Is it biased to automatically put on a hat when leaving the house in the winter, without checking the temperature? If an application indicates everything necessary about a candidate, why have interviews at all?
We couldn't function in the world without making numerous statistical inferences every day; the important thing is that we are able to gather more data which can let us see that our inferences are invalid some of the time.

[dismalist]

lack of funding the public school

Evidence?

What? Lack of funding for public schools has clearly been shown to disproportionately effect the poor. African Americans are disproportionately poor relative to white Americans. What more evidence would you want to see?

Spending per pupil is quite high in heavily Black cities. Here are a few https://www.asumag.com/research/top-10s/article/21126924/among-largest-districts-who-spends-the-most-per-pupil

[Kron3007]

lack of funding the public school

Evidence?

What? Lack of funding for public schools has clearly been shown to disproportionately effect the poor. African Americans are disproportionately poor relative to white Americans. What more evidence would you want to see?

Spending per pupil is quite high in heavily Black cities. Here are a few https://www.asumag.com/research/top-10s/article/21126924/among-largest-districts-who-spends-the-most-per-pupil

Perhaps at the city level, but you would need to go deeper to look at equity. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-02-26/white-students-get-more-k-12-funding-than-students-of-color-report

[mahagonny]

As for contingent labour etc., I agree that it is a problem and should be addressed.  Where I am they are part of a union and we dont use them too much.  However, I suspect that funding for education needs to be increased to make this happen everywhere.  Trying to fix it without more funding seems futile.     

Higher education is not 'underfunded.' That's the big lie that's repeated often enough to be believed. Saying it's underfunded is the subterfuge for getting the skilled labor done by people who are sealed off from jobs that enable advancement, status, equitable compensation, permanence. Higher ed is crowning achievement of a hypocritical political party.

[eigen]

As for contingent labour etc., I agree that it is a problem and should be addressed.  Where I am they are part of a union and we dont use them too much.  However, I suspect that funding for education needs to be increased to make this happen everywhere.  Trying to fix it without more funding seems futile.     

Higher education is not 'underfunded.' That's the big lie that's repeated often enough to be believed. Saying it's underfunded is the subterfuge for getting the skilled labor done by people who are sealed off from jobs that enable advancement, status, equitable compensation, permanence. Higher ed is crowning achievement of a hypocritical political party.

I mean, it is underfunded because most schools cannot afford to give equitable compensation and security to all of their workers. Your point pretty much underscores the fact that higher ed is underfunded.

[dismalist]

lack of funding the public school

Evidence?

What? Lack of funding for public schools has clearly been shown to disproportionately effect the poor. African Americans are disproportionately poor relative to white Americans. What more evidence would you want to see?

Spending per pupil is quite high in heavily Black cities. Here are a few https://www.asumag.com/research/top-10s/article/21126924/among-largest-districts-who-spends-the-most-per-pupil

Perhaps at the city level, but you would need to go deeper to look at equity. 

https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2019-02-26/white-students-get-more-k-12-funding-than-students-of-color-report

The article cites a report saying income is not a proxy for race. I'm so glad to hear it!