2020 Elections

[Stockmann]

I know people hate to hear from the self-righteous about inebriating chemicals, but the facts are on our side.

Actually, the facts are that the illegal drug trade is destroying entire nations (Colombia, Honduras, Mexico and Afghanistan, to name a few) and that the war on drugs is an abject failure that would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. NATO didn't even pretend to try to fight it in Afghanistan, and in Mexico the President has personally gone to pay his respects to El Chapo's Mom, to say nothing of the pathetic charade of the DEA arresting and then letting go a former Mexican Defense Secretary on charges of being basically a drug lord, to name some of the most dramatic examples of how farcical it's become. I have a very low opinion of recreational addicts (including alcoholics and excluding folks who use opiates for genuine medical reasons), in which I suspect we agree, but at least addicts who get it from legal sources or grow their own pot or produce their own moonshine or whatever are not funding the drug cartels, which resemble IS in their brutality.

[marshwiggle]

Regardless, the negative effects of cannabis or any other drugs are a moot point when discussing legalization because the laws don't stop people from using them.  If the goal is to reduce the negative impacts of drugs across society, criminalization is the wrong approach.       

Legalizing cannabis hasn't ended the illegal trade. Part of the argument with legalization is that it would make illicit sales unprofitable. It hasn't.

The stuff isn't legalized everywhere. It's "decriminalized" in places for carrying personal use quantities. The illegal trade will not stop until all is legalized, including commercial use, not merely restrictively decriminalized.

Depending on the tax rate. :-)

You can try to eliminate the criminal trade in something, OR you can tax it, but you can't do both. The profit in the criminal trade comes from not paying taxes (among other things). So, if you want to make it all legit, give it away for free. If you want to make tax revenue, accept that the higher the tax rate the more criminals will be able to profit from it.

[mahagonny]

I know people hate to hear from the self-righteous about inebriating chemicals, but the facts are on our side.

Actually, the facts are that the illegal drug trade is destroying entire nations (Colombia, Honduras, Mexico and Afghanistan, to name a few) and that the war on drugs is an abject failure that would be laughable if it weren't so tragic. NATO didn't even pretend to try to fight it in Afghanistan, and in Mexico the President has personally gone to pay his respects to El Chapo's Mom, to say nothing of the pathetic charade of the DEA arresting and then letting go a former Mexican Defense Secretary on charges of being basically a drug lord, to name some of the most dramatic examples of how farcical it's become. I have a very low opinion of recreational addicts (including alcoholics and excluding folks who use opiates for genuine medical reasons), in which I suspect we agree, but at least addicts who get it from legal sources or grow their own pot or produce their own moonshine or whatever are not funding the drug cartels, which resemble IS in their brutality.

Most interesting, thank you. And not to push my point, but we drastically reduced the consumption of tobacco mostly through changes in collective attitude. The tobacco companies are still there but the have to prey on others besides us. If we had the will to do it we could get Americans to stop using recreation dope.

[jimbogumbo]

I think Kron3007 has it right with the cut in half reference to Prohibition. IMO, you can never completely eliminate something like the drug trade. You might as well put your resources into attempting to eliminate rats. You'd do more good, and be equally unsuccessful.

[marshwiggle]

I think Kron3007 has it right with the cut in half reference to Prohibition. IMO, you can never completely eliminate something like the drug trade. You might as well put your resources into attempting to eliminate rats. You'd do more good, and be equally unsuccessful.

So what drugs do you make legal to produce? Heroin? Crack? Meth? Does every chemical that people manage to acquire automatically get government sanction for production and distribution?

Should there be laws about storage of one's stash? If kids get into their parents' drugs and OD, are the parents criminally negligent?

These aren't Easter eggs we're talking about here......

[mahagonny]

I think Kron3007 has it right with the cut in half reference to Prohibition. IMO, you can never completely eliminate something like the drug trade. You might as well put your resources into attempting to eliminate rats. You'd do more good, and be equally unsuccessful.

Still, there's no reason we couldn't have a culture with a drastically lower amount of alcohol consumption than we have now. The Mormons do it. It's like abstinence or contraception. It only works when it's tried. We have alcoholism, acute and chronic, everywhere because we've decided it's OK. And I am a former teetotaler, so I don't speak from self-righteousness. Just observation.

[jimbogumbo]

I think Kron3007 has it right with the cut in half reference to Prohibition. IMO, you can never completely eliminate something like the drug trade. You might as well put your resources into attempting to eliminate rats. You'd do more good, and be equally unsuccessful.

So what drugs do you make legal to produce? Heroin? Crack? Meth? Does every chemical that people manage to acquire automatically get government sanction for production and distribution?

Should there be laws about storage of one's stash? If kids get into their parents' drugs and OD, are the parents criminally negligent?

These aren't Easter eggs we're talking about here......

People have used (and will continue to use) substances throughout history that have altered their state of mind regardless of enforcement policies. That is all I'm saying.

I grew up Methodist, attended Loyal Temperance League meetings (actual Kool Aid was served). Most Protestant denominations in the Midwest at least discouraged alcohol use. They were certainly far less successful than the Latter Day Saints.

[Kron3007]

I think Kron3007 has it right with the cut in half reference to Prohibition. IMO, you can never completely eliminate something like the drug trade. You might as well put your resources into attempting to eliminate rats. You'd do more good, and be equally unsuccessful.

So what drugs do you make legal to produce? Heroin? Crack? Meth? Does every chemical that people manage to acquire automatically get government sanction for production and distribution?

Should there be laws about storage of one's stash? If kids get into their parents' drugs and OD, are the parents criminally negligent?

These aren't Easter eggs we're talking about here......

If I was Lord and ruler, yes, they would all be legal and regulated Yes, there would be rules about storage, and yes, you could be charged for neglegence. 

In the case of Cannabis in Canada, it all comes in tamper/child proof packaging and is well labelled.  In the case of black market, it generally comes in an unmarked plastic bag.  So, again, this isn't to say drugs are harmless or to promote their use, the intent is to minimize risk/harm.  Likewise, with legalization, people would be more inclined to seek help before hitting rock bottom.

[mahagonny]

I also oppose public benefits of any kind for drug users. Again, I don't care if you want to use drugs, but if you can afford them, you don't need my money. Same with anyone who has a tattoo. Regardless of how much you "like" or "dislike" these things, they are discretionary purchases. The fact that most losers on the dole have multiple substances of choice and a body art collection resembling a tagged freeway underpass infuriates the rest of us more than imagined. We don't care if someone wants the take meth and have someone tat the spider web on their elbow but we don't want to pay for it. A lot of animosity toward drug users comes down to this aspect. Don't get in a car, don't care for a child while high, get off the dole and suddenly people aren't as concerned that you want to use.

I appreciate the logic here, the expression of a libertarian point of view. To me it's a breath of fresh air among the lunacy of academic bleeding hard liberalism and whitey- blaming. Still I see a problem though, or maybe I'm not getting it yet. The poor unskilled like maybe, not to keep picking on him, but George Floyd, cannot have recreational drugs in their life without costing us even if they understand it's on them if they choose to do it. Because they will become unemployable, so even if we're not paying for their drugs or rehabilitation from drugs, they're getting food stamps and subsidized rent, basically, because they choose to be druggies. So for me the only solution left is an all out war on drugs. Meaning, teaching children that getting high is wrong. Not a street war with the dealers. A war against the belief that getting high is cool. Or else, just lifetime incarceration.

[financeguy]

I'm open to whatever practical method would be consistent with this philosophy overall. Those with low income/education who chose to continue to use could not only lose benefits but face incarceration upon failing a regularly scheduled test that is mandated for receipt of benefits. Taking away children from parents (especially single mothers) who are born with a chemical dependency is another step.

The severity of consequences for those who affect others can go as high as necessary as far as I'm concerned. This ultimately becomes an academic debate since there are very few drug users who don't negatively affect someone else due to their drug use, but I have no problem respecting the person choice of the few that do exist.

[Parasaurolophus]

You're monstrous.

[marshwiggle]

So what drugs do you make legal to produce? Heroin? Crack? Meth? Does every chemical that people manage to acquire automatically get government sanction for production and distribution?

Should there be laws about storage of one's stash? If kids get into their parents' drugs and OD, are the parents criminally negligent?

These aren't Easter eggs we're talking about here......

If I was Lord and ruler, yes, they would all be legal and regulated Yes, there would be rules about storage, and yes, you could be charged for neglegence. 

In the case of Cannabis in Canada, it all comes in tamper/child proof packaging and is well labelled.  In the case of black market, it generally comes in an unmarked plastic bag.  So, again, this isn't to say drugs are harmless or to promote their use, the intent is to minimize risk/harm.  Likewise, with legalization, people would be more inclined to seek help before hitting rock bottom.

Here's an example of what to expect.

From the article:

It is not clear how a one-year-old boy ended up ingesting enough Tylenol and cannabis that an ambulance had to be called and the child had to be hospitalized.

There are all kinds of stories from the US of people dying from gunshots inflicted by toddlers and young children because of irresponsible adults who obviously aren't careful enough to keep their guns secure. The same will be true with drugs. In fact, since drug addicts are people with poor judgement and impulse control, it will be much worse.  A few years back there was the story of a child who died by drinking methadone-containing orange juice. (The father was on a methadone program, and put it in orange juice to make it more palatable.)

In the news story above, it was only cannabis; with things like fentanyl where tiny amounts can be deadly, deaths of children will skyrocket if people are allowed to posess them, no matter what restrictions are placed on how they are supposed to be handled. These aren't accidents; they are completely preventable deaths which only occur because dangerous, unhealthy behaviour is indulged.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Another day, another set of efforts to overthrow the results of a democratic election:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-kemp-call-georgia/2020/12/05/fd8d677c-3721-11eb-8d38-6aea1adb3839_story.html

And another insane conspiracy-laden rant of lies from the President to undermine trust in the democratic process:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/12/05/trump-obama-events-heat-up-georgia-senate-races-before-voter-registration-deadline/

[histchick]

"Your governor could stop it very easily if he knew what the hell he was doing," the president said. 

Um, no.  That's not how our state works.  We're screwed up, in many ways, but at least Gov. Kemp understands that he can't just magically give those electoral votes to Trump. 

[Kron3007]

So what drugs do you make legal to produce? Heroin? Crack? Meth? Does every chemical that people manage to acquire automatically get government sanction for production and distribution?

Should there be laws about storage of one's stash? If kids get into their parents' drugs and OD, are the parents criminally negligent?

These aren't Easter eggs we're talking about here......

If I was Lord and ruler, yes, they would all be legal and regulated Yes, there would be rules about storage, and yes, you could be charged for neglegence. 

In the case of Cannabis in Canada, it all comes in tamper/child proof packaging and is well labelled.  In the case of black market, it generally comes in an unmarked plastic bag.  So, again, this isn't to say drugs are harmless or to promote their use, the intent is to minimize risk/harm.  Likewise, with legalization, people would be more inclined to seek help before hitting rock bottom.

Here's an example of what to expect.

From the article:

It is not clear how a one-year-old boy ended up ingesting enough Tylenol and cannabis that an ambulance had to be called and the child had to be hospitalized.

There are all kinds of stories from the US of people dying from gunshots inflicted by toddlers and young children because of irresponsible adults who obviously aren't careful enough to keep their guns secure. The same will be true with drugs. In fact, since drug addicts are people with poor judgement and impulse control, it will be much worse.  A few years back there was the story of a child who died by drinking methadone-containing orange juice. (The father was on a methadone program, and put it in orange juice to make it more palatable.)

In the news story above, it was only cannabis; with things like fentanyl where tiny amounts can be deadly, deaths of children will skyrocket if people are allowed to posess them, no matter what restrictions are placed on how they are supposed to be handled. These aren't accidents; they are completely preventable deaths which only occur because dangerous, unhealthy behaviour is indulged.

You do realize that people using illegal drugs already have children right?  This issue is just like the DUIs, it is a real problem but it already exists. Legalization dosn't change this, but it does allow the government to regulate packaging and formulations.  It is interesting that you also include an example with Tylenol overdose, a completely legal item that is by far more toxic than the cannabis in the story (Tylenol can do permanent kidney damage, the cannabis would only cause a relatively minor event).

For those saying most drug users do not make good choices and such, again, you may be surprised to know how many functional drug users there are that lead perfectly normal lives.  One thing that has been interesting with cannabis legalization in Canada is how this has made people more open about it.  I use cannabis (rarely smoke it), and know many other professors, CEOs of companies, teachers, nurses, and other professionals who partake.  The whole stereotype of the lazy stoner is mostly a product of decades of propaganda.  This isn't to say they don't exist, but it is a good lessen in correlation not equalling causation.

You may not agree with my life choices, but I see no reason that should matter unless they are impacting you (or others).  We store it safely away from our children, don't drive under the influence, pay our taxes, give to charity, and are generally good members of society, just a little stoned sometimes.  If my younger self had been sent to jail for this, I could be leading a very different life, not for the better.

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