2020 Elections

[spork]

He's all the Republicans elected to national office have.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Odd, Trump fights what can at best be called a rear guard action; the Democrats control the Senate https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2021-01-06/democrats-win-u-s-senate-as-ossoff-tops-perdue-in-georgia-sweep; and we continue shadow boxing with reality as though nothing has changed.

Maybe Trump is indeed all the Democrats have.

Democrats have an ambitious legislative agenda. How silly of them to get distracted by Trump's riot in the capital.

[mahagonny]

Do you really think Trump and his supporters would have done things differently if BLM had never happened? Trump has been promising not to respect the electoral process since before he was even elected.

You didn't ask me, but I'll take a stab at it: Trump isn't doing what he's doing because he was provoked. He's more of a grotesque anomaly who just goes his own enigmatic way (one hopes). But the liberal pastime of calling everything and anyone racist whenever the whim strikes won a lot of votes for Trump in 2016. They still don't realize how incendiary it is. And BLM is part of it.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Do you really think Trump and his supporters would have done things differently if BLM had never happened? Trump has been promising not to respect the electoral process since before he was even elected.

You didn't ask me, but I'll take a stab at it: Trump isn't doing what he's doing because he was provoked. He's more of a grotesque anomaly who just goes his own enigmatic way (one hopes). But the liberal pastime of calling everything and anyone racist whenever the whim strikes won a lot of votes for Trump in 2016. They still don't realize how incendiary it is. And BLM is part of it.

So in other words, yes Trump would have done all of this anyway and the stuff about BLM is totally irrelevant.

[mahagonny]

No, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to do it, because he wouldn't have been elected. He's a man whose success was created by the times.

[jimbogumbo]

It's a disgrace, and today's rioters should be imprisoned or shot.

(Also, this is happening in large part because of the way the George Floyd protests were treated by the Left, your media allies, and your elected representatives. If Fox News broke out a "fiery but mostly peaceful protests" chyron this afternoon, it would only be poetic justice.)

Does the whataboutism never stop?

Don't try to blame the left or BLM for this anti-democratic insurrection based on made up fraud, egged on by the President, his family, and his authoritarian allies in the Congress. Right wingers own this.

No, writingprof is correct. If rioting is condoned if it is for a supposedly "good cause", then every angry person is going to claim that their cause is right. If the rule of law is upheld consistently, then no-one gets to think they ought to be justified.

(The whole point about Trump contesting the election is that he won't accept the law when he doesn't like the result. If you claim the BLM protesters, ANITFA, etc. are justified in breaking the law, then you strengthen Trump's claim that is is OK when he does it.)

My comments are in reference to today, not last night.

writingprof is correct except for:

No police in riot gear
No pepper spray
No gas
No arrests
No batons

I'm calling for police in riot gear. I'm calling for pepper spray. I'm calling for gas. I'm calling for arrests. I'm calling for batons. This is not whataboutism.

One can condemn today's mobs unequivocally while also explaining the cultural trends that have given rise to them. Or, anyway, a smart person can. You'll get there one day.

I know you called for those things (an more). I was more responding to what marshwiggle wrote, and again quoted badly.

I don't disagree with your reference to cultural trends. I just wis you would acknowledge that BLM (for example) was formed in response to years of cultural trends, and years of unjustified shootings and beatings.

[Sun_Worshiper]

No, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to do it, because he wouldn't have been elected. He's a man whose success was created by the times.

Everyone is created by their times, but it is a bold claim to say that Trump's election is attributable to BLM (feel free to link to a study demonstrating this to be the case).  Beyond that, to say that Trump's riot is somehow attributable to BLM because BLM existed in 2016 is quite a reach.

[spork]

The claim that BLM drives support for Trump and caused today's events is whataboutism.

Statements by top officials in various parts of the U.S. government suggest that Trump is no longer involved in any decision making -- in other words, that he's been deemed incompetent and has been isolated. One can only hope.

[Sun_Worshiper]

The claim that BLM drives support for Trump and caused today's events is whataboutism.

Statements by top officials in various parts of the U.S. government suggest that Trump is no longer involved in any decision making -- in other words, that he's been deemed incompetent and and isolated.

Yes Pence appears to have deployed national guard.

[writingprof]

It's a disgrace, and today's rioters should be imprisoned or shot.

(Also, this is happening in large part because of the way the George Floyd protests were treated by the Left, your media allies, and your elected representatives. If Fox News broke out a "fiery but mostly peaceful protests" chyron this afternoon, it would only be poetic justice.)

Does the whataboutism never stop?

Don't try to blame the left or BLM for this anti-democratic insurrection based on made up fraud, egged on by the President, his family, and his authoritarian allies in the Congress. Right wingers own this.

No, writingprof is correct. If rioting is condoned if it is for a supposedly "good cause", then every angry person is going to claim that their cause is right. If the rule of law is upheld consistently, then no-one gets to think they ought to be justified.

(The whole point about Trump contesting the election is that he won't accept the law when he doesn't like the result. If you claim the BLM protesters, ANITFA, etc. are justified in breaking the law, then you strengthen Trump's claim that is is OK when he does it.)

My comments are in reference to today, not last night.

writingprof is correct except for:

No police in riot gear
No pepper spray
No gas
No arrests
No batons

I'm calling for police in riot gear. I'm calling for pepper spray. I'm calling for gas. I'm calling for arrests. I'm calling for batons. This is not whataboutism.

One can condemn today's mobs unequivocally while also explaining the cultural trends that have given rise to them. Or, anyway, a smart person can. You'll get there one day.

I know you called for those things (an more). I was more responding to what marshwiggle wrote, and again quoted badly.

I don't disagree with your reference to cultural trends. I just wis you would acknowledge that BLM (for example) was formed in response to years of cultural trends, and years of unjustified shootings and beatings.

I acknowledge that BLM arose in response to cultural trends.

I also acknowledge (someone else made this point) that the failure of Trump and his supporters to acknowledge defeat has nothing to do with BLM.

What I do not acknowledge is that today's riots are unconnected to the BLM riots.  Rioting was normalized and defended in the media and elsewhere this summer.  Today is (partly) the fruit of that.

[spork]

Yes, it's BLM's fault that bombs were planted in the nation's capital today, and that the President encouraged his supporters to riot.

[Puget]

The claim that BLM drives support for Trump and caused today's events is whataboutism.

Statements by top officials in various parts of the U.S. government suggest that Trump is no longer involved in any decision making -- in other words, that he's been deemed incompetent and and isolated.

Yes Pence appears to have deployed national guard.

1. DC statehood needs to happen for lots of reasons, but add now to the list that they need to be able to call out their own national guard without permission from the president.

2. It won't happen, but if ever there was a time for the 25th amendment it is now.

[marshwiggle]

It's a disgrace, and today's rioters should be imprisoned or shot.

(Also, this is happening in large part because of the way the George Floyd protests were treated by the Left, your media allies, and your elected representatives. If Fox News broke out a "fiery but mostly peaceful protests" chyron this afternoon, it would only be poetic justice.)

Does the whataboutism never stop?

Don't try to blame the left or BLM for this anti-democratic insurrection based on made up fraud, egged on by the President, his family, and his authoritarian allies in the Congress. Right wingers own this.

No, writingprof is correct. If rioting is condoned if it is for a supposedly "good cause", then every angry person is going to claim that their cause is right. If the rule of law is upheld consistently, then no-one gets to think they ought to be justified.

(The whole point about Trump contesting the election is that he won't accept the law when he doesn't like the result. If you claim the BLM protesters, ANITFA, etc. are justified in breaking the law, then you strengthen Trump's claim that is is OK when he does it.)

My comments are in reference To today, not last night.

writingprof is correct except for:

No police in riot gear
No pepper spray
No gas
No arrests
No batons

And marshwiggle, I did not condone the violence at protests. I've lamented it. But to suggest an equivalency on the part of BLM with THE ACTIONS OF THE PRESIDENT is ludicrous.

I'm not comparing the actions of the President (which have been very undemocratic and dangerous) with BLM. What I am saying is that activists FOR ALL KINDS OF CAUSES are emboldened any time governments refuse to act swiftly and decisively on lawlessness. (And not just activists, but all kinds of just plain criminals who will use the cover of any sort of "accepted" violence to do their own thing.)
When governments basically tell police, etc. to not arrest protesters who are breaking the law, it suggests that anytime enough people break the law together there is a good chance that they will be able to get away with it.

[mamselle]

If he won't concede, this little shindig may finish the job of removing him anyway:

1) House Democrats Omar, Pressley and Moulton, among others, have called for Trump's immediate impeachment and removal by Congress when it can reconvene.

   https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/trump-impeachment-ilhan-omar-us-capitol-b1783535.html

   https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/06/954125266/rep-omar-says-she-is-drafting-new-articles-of-impeachment-against-trump

   Maryland Lt. Gov. Boyd Rutherford has also described Trump's conduct as impeachable:

  - Byrne, Deirdre (January 6, 2021). "Lt. Gov. Boyd Rutherford: 'Impeachable Offense to Incite Violence'". Montgomery Community Media.

2) Representatives Lieu and Crist and Governors Pritzker (D-Ill) and Scott (R-Vt) have asked Pence to invoke the Twenty-fifth Amendment:

- "'Donald Trump has incited a violent coup attempt' Illinois Gov. Pritzker on DC demonstrations".

- "Governor Scott: "President Trump should resign or be removed from office", other Vermont officials react to U.S. Capitol riots".

- Ting, Eric (January 6, 2021). "After Trump supporters storm Capitol, Rep. Ted Lieu calls for Trump's immediate removal from office". SFGATE.

- Contorno, Steve (January 6, 2021). "Charlie Crist: Remove Donald Trump from office by invoking 25th Amendment". Tampa Bay Times.

I'm also most impressed by the courage of the folks going back in to finish the count and make the declaration.

    https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/06/954164654/congress-reconvenes-after-violent-rioters-breach-u-s-capitol

Tested and found able, I think.

But it started out as such a nice day today. I was just glad Georgia's two Democratic Senatorial candidates were doing well....

M.

[spork]

Pence seems pissed off. First time I've heard him sound like he has a spine.