2020 Elections

[apl68]

No, I'm saying you're too quick to write someone off so self-righteously without knowing them.

i took it as not unlike the urbane quips I may make when--despite the strong, deep, sincere awareness of many regrettable kinds of human cost, and even one death was too many, now we hear there were four--one has to see some kind of bright side or go mad.  Survivor cynicism, maybe?

That's how I saw it too.

[apl68]

Pence seems pissed off. First time I've heard him sound like he has a spine.

So, something good might come of it after all.

Hmm....

M.

It's too close to the next inauguration to have time for a formal impeachment process.  I would like to see the Vice President remove the President from office and hold it until then.  Then at some point, after more urgent business relating to the pandemic has been dealt with, I'd like to see the former President placed on trial for treason.  In a federal court, not by Congress.  They've got other business to take care of.

Theoretically impeachment could be carried out very quickly; 25th amendment would be fine as well. It seems unfathomable that this man is going to be in office for another 14 days after directing an attack on the US government. But it also seems like there has been a decision to informally sideline Trump instead. I'd love to know what prompted him to call for a peaceful transition of power today - I'm sure it wasn't his conscience.

As I said in another thread, prior to this I would have been opposed to charging a former president. But now I agree with you that Trump must be charged. If leading an insurgency against the US government doesn't merit criminal charges then I don't know what does.

Right.  For once it would be a matter of absolutely unambiguous "high crimes and misdemeanors," and not a president's political opponents trying to trump up (to to speak) charges, as has been the case in the past.

[Parasaurolophus]

A 25th amendment removal is not initiated by congress -- it stipulates that the president can be removed if found to be "unable to discharge the powers and duties" of the office by the vice president and majority of the cabinet. Congress only becomes involved if the president contests the finding (which would certainly be the case here, but not in most cases it was imagined for, e.g., the president has stroke or is otherwise incapacitated). At that point 2/3 vote in both chambers would be needed.

So no, this isn't going to happen realistically, but not because congress is in recess (and remember they can be called back into session at any time-- this happens frequently for emergencies real and imagined).

Thanks for the clarification.

[spork]

Is there any danger of those positions being filled by our departing 'leader' with people who could be difficult to deal with overall?

I.e., as noted with Pence, do the resignations leave open slots that might be move volatile/pivotal in other ways?

Talk about a mess.

M.

The person who is difficult to deal with/volatile/pivotal is Trump. For his entire adult life, he's destroyed everything and everyone he's come in contact with. In the White House, he's surrounded himself with sycophants and enablers who delude themselves into believing that proximity to him will help them achieve their own ambitions. He will continue trying to burn down the country for as long as he's in a position to do so. The parallel here are people like David Koresh or Jim Jones. Or the Wisconsin pharmacist who deliberately left the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine out of the refrigerator -- if he hadn't been discovered and arrested, either his soon-to-be ex-wife and daughters, or some of his former co-workers, would be dead now.

[spork]

Chao resigned. Like I said, her last paycheck is already being processed.

[Kron3007]

Looks like the Senate is adjourned until Jan. 19, and the House until an unspecified date after Jan. 20. So: no impeachment, no 25th amendment*, and no $2000 cheques.



*I think?

A 25th amendment removal is not initiated by congress -- it stipulates that the president can be removed if found to be "unable to discharge the powers and duties" of the office by the vice president and majority of the cabinet. Congress only becomes involved if the president contests the finding (which would certainly be the case here, but not in most cases it was imagined for, e.g., the president has stroke or is otherwise incapacitated). At that point 2/3 vote in both chambers would be needed.

So no, this isn't going to happen realistically, but not because congress is in recess (and remember they can be called back into session at any time-- this happens frequently for emergencies real and imagined).

Sure it is possible, but would it be wise.  I was listening to someone on the radio who mentioned the fact that this would require the entire cabinet to meet.  The issue with this, is that Trump would know, and would be more inclined to do something really crazy before they could do it.  I think they had a point, imagine how angry he would get knowing that this was happening, and I dont believe they could hide it from him.

That's the problem with giving the nuclear codes to someone with the temperament of a toddler...

[mamselle]

There are still two weeks for the toddler to create all kinds of mayhem, too.

It's like people keep thinking if they take this tool our of his hands, he just can't unscrew the door's hinges, meanwhile, he's built a rope walk out the window and gotten away.

Setting appropriate limits with teeth in them at this point might mean arresting him, first, and naming Pence in charge, afterwards.

I agree, if he has direct access to any of the seriously potent attributes of the position they may be very badly used.

But just sitting around hoping he won't try to stoke up other kinds of nonsense is delusional in its own right.

I'm hoping Biden and Harris are fully and safely now being accorded Secret Service protection, and/or whatever other kinds of security they need; he (or his benighted idolaters) could go for them next.

M.

[apl68]

Looks like the Senate is adjourned until Jan. 19, and the House until an unspecified date after Jan. 20. So: no impeachment, no 25th amendment*, and no $2000 cheques.



*I think?

A 25th amendment removal is not initiated by congress -- it stipulates that the president can be removed if found to be "unable to discharge the powers and duties" of the office by the vice president and majority of the cabinet. Congress only becomes involved if the president contests the finding (which would certainly be the case here, but not in most cases it was imagined for, e.g., the president has stroke or is otherwise incapacitated). At that point 2/3 vote in both chambers would be needed.

So no, this isn't going to happen realistically, but not because congress is in recess (and remember they can be called back into session at any time-- this happens frequently for emergencies real and imagined).

Sure it is possible, but would it be wise.  I was listening to someone on the radio who mentioned the fact that this would require the entire cabinet to meet.  The issue with this, is that Trump would know, and would be more inclined to do something really crazy before they could do it.  I think they had a point, imagine how angry he would get knowing that this was happening, and I dont believe they could hide it from him.

That's the problem with giving the nuclear codes to someone with the temperament of a toddler...

At this point I'm pretty sure everybody who answers to the President knows that carrying out any instructions he gives in the next days is likely to require civil disobedience, to keep themselves out of hot water.  His levers of power have for practical purposes been disconnected.  A Cabinet meeting to depose him might provoke him, all right, but it's hard to see what he could do about it.

[Kron3007]

Looks like the Senate is adjourned until Jan. 19, and the House until an unspecified date after Jan. 20. So: no impeachment, no 25th amendment*, and no $2000 cheques.



*I think?

A 25th amendment removal is not initiated by congress -- it stipulates that the president can be removed if found to be "unable to discharge the powers and duties" of the office by the vice president and majority of the cabinet. Congress only becomes involved if the president contests the finding (which would certainly be the case here, but not in most cases it was imagined for, e.g., the president has stroke or is otherwise incapacitated). At that point 2/3 vote in both chambers would be needed.

So no, this isn't going to happen realistically, but not because congress is in recess (and remember they can be called back into session at any time-- this happens frequently for emergencies real and imagined).

Sure it is possible, but would it be wise.  I was listening to someone on the radio who mentioned the fact that this would require the entire cabinet to meet.  The issue with this, is that Trump would know, and would be more inclined to do something really crazy before they could do it.  I think they had a point, imagine how angry he would get knowing that this was happening, and I dont believe they could hide it from him.

That's the problem with giving the nuclear codes to someone with the temperament of a toddler...

At this point I'm pretty sure everybody who answers to the President knows that carrying out any instructions he gives in the next days is likely to require civil disobedience, to keep themselves out of hot water.  His levers of power have for practical purposes been disconnected.  A Cabinet meeting to depose him might provoke him, all right, but it's hard to see what he could do about it.

Except nuke Iran or something and cause WWIII...

I doubt he would, but as far as I know, he could.

[Langue_doc]

Looks like the Senate is adjourned until Jan. 19, and the House until an unspecified date after Jan. 20. So: no impeachment, no 25th amendment*, and no $2000 cheques.



*I think?

A 25th amendment removal is not initiated by congress -- it stipulates that the president can be removed if found to be "unable to discharge the powers and duties" of the office by the vice president and majority of the cabinet. Congress only becomes involved if the president contests the finding (which would certainly be the case here, but not in most cases it was imagined for, e.g., the president has stroke or is otherwise incapacitated). At that point 2/3 vote in both chambers would be needed.

So no, this isn't going to happen realistically, but not because congress is in recess (and remember they can be called back into session at any time-- this happens frequently for emergencies real and imagined).

Sure it is possible, but would it be wise.  I was listening to someone on the radio who mentioned the fact that this would require the entire cabinet to meet.  The issue with this, is that Trump would know, and would be more inclined to do something really crazy before they could do it.  I think they had a point, imagine how angry he would get knowing that this was happening, and I dont believe they could hide it from him.

That's the problem with giving the nuclear codes to someone with the temperament of a toddler...

At this point I'm pretty sure everybody who answers to the President knows that carrying out any instructions he gives in the next days is likely to require civil disobedience, to keep themselves out of hot water.  His levers of power have for practical purposes been disconnected.  A Cabinet meeting to depose him might provoke him, all right, but it's hard to see what he could do about it.

Except nuke Iran or something and cause WWIII...

I doubt he would, but as far as I know, he could.

He probably would, just to show the world and delude himself that he is making America great again.

[mamselle]

That's what I mean.

He needs to be accosted and secluded first, before anything else happens.

A year ago I said "keep him away from sharps." I still think that, too.

M.

[jimbogumbo]

It is being reported that a Capitol police officer has now died.

[clean]

Here are my minimal thoughts on using the 25th amendment.  Suppose that it is attempted.  What is to keep  The Great Pumpkin from firing all cabinet members in mass??  (Which is what Bolton had noted). 

Next.  Lets say that the VP and the Cabinet ARE able to pull it off?  Then what?  If his supporters were upset about the 'stolen election' what would they do if  their President were removed from office (even if just 2 weeks early)? While some are calling the rioting/insurrection on Wednesday at the Capital an attempted coup, What would the Trumpians say if their president Actually WERE to be Removed?  Could we not see that THEY would consider that a true coup?

They already think that the election was 'stolen', what would they DO (and would even MORE (who may be on the fence)  be prompted to join in and act!!!) IF he actually WERE removed, even with only 2 weeks to go?


Now, personally, I would like to see that he be removed, IF only to take him away from his role as Commander in Chief AND to remove his Pardon Pen.


In summary....Just sayin.... IF this THEN WHAT?  What would THEY do once Trump Was removed? 


On another note, as Graham noted in the Senate on Thursday morning... Those who think that the election was stolen are not going to believe anything that Nancy or Chuck come out with telling them the opposite.  Removing Their Guy wont be anything less than a coup, and this is NOT going to help Biden's administration.

[Parasaurolophus]

The best argument in favour of impeachment and removal--especially after the Beerbelly Putsch!--is that it would bar him from running again in four years.

[clean]

e best argument in favour of impeachment and removal--especially after the Beerbelly Putsch!--is that it would bar him from running again in four years.

Do you think he could WIN???? 

Let him RUN!!

Otherwise, you give him EVERYTHING!  He wont run, but he wont lose!!  "They were SOOOO afraid of me, the made sure I could not run!  Not only did they steal the LAST Election, they wont even take the chance that they will have to steal the next one too!"

Not allowing him to be elected wont keep him from fomenting insurrection and discussing The Good People- On BOTH sides!