2020 Elections

[fast_and_bulbous]

I always vote for whom I want to win because I don't believe in "you only really have two choices on this big slate of candidates, so vote for the lesser evil".

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it isn't true. That's the way the system work in the US. Pretending it isn't so is (literally) throwing your vote away. But you get the benefit of feeling better about yourself, so there is that.

It's a lousy system but it's the system we have. Irrelevant third parties use presidential elections as fundraising events, no more, as far as I can see.

But at least President Gary Johnson has really turned things around for the US!

[Puget]

I always vote for whom I want to win because I don't believe in "you only really have two choices on this big slate of candidates, so vote for the lesser evil".

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it isn't true. That's the way the system work in the US. Pretending it isn't so is (literally) throwing your vote away. But you get the benefit of feeling better about yourself, so there is that.

It's a lousy system but it's the system we have. Irrelevant third parties use presidential elections as fundraising events, no more, as far as I can see.

But at least President Gary Johnson has really turned things around for the US!

This. If you live in a non-competitive state then go ahead, vote your conscience-- Until we get rid of the electoral college your vote is just symbolic anyway.  But if you live in a swing state, I think there is a moral obligation to use your vote in the way you think will do the most good and least harm in the world. I get really frustrated with arguments about voting one's conscience from people who's demographic and economic privilege insulates them from most of the consequences of having the "greater of two evils" win.

[polly_mer]

Whose conscience should I follow if not mine?

What are my obligations to figuring out whose interests I must support when those interests conflict based on all the information I have?

I get really tired of being told that I'm throwing away my vote by voting for what I want when even the worst choice will be acceptable.

The entire schtick of "that person is so evil that if they become president we're all DOOMED!!!!!!" has been going on my entire adult life and yet somehow, even when that person is elected, the country endures.  When the great savior who is going to fix everything gets elected, things tend to not get fixed in a timely manner and we just go along for the duration of that presidency as well.

I've been screwed over under both Republican and Democrat presidencies and I've had successes under both.  The one person who is at the top matters far less than people like to believe.  Go look at what's happening in other countries and what has historically happened when people feel like they have nothing left to lose and give up entirely on the system.

Yes, I do have the privilege to not care all that much.  That's a result of living the American dream of growing up poor, getting lucky in having a great school system, and taking full advantage of saying, "I want this, so I'm going to work hard for it" instead of accepting what people told me my choices were based on their narrow view of what's possible based on what's currently available.

People who repeatedly tell me things that are contrary to my direct experience and/or research get discounted when I'm just weighing personal opinion.

People who think the system is going to somehow magically changed by putting a different long-standing member of the system in charge are also believing something that makes them feel good rather than truly voting for change.

[fast_and_bulbous]

I really sympathize with your position, Polly, but I'm not wrong about throwing away your vote. Math sucks but it's real.

Edit: I share your frustrations, I really do. But when there is a 0% chance of the person you are voting for getting the position, you might as well vote for mickey mouse or stay home. Voting becomes nothing more than a symbolic gesture.

It's the system we have. It's baked in - and the two ruling parties make it very hard to change it.

I'm talking specifically about the presidential election. Smaller elections are a different story and that's where third parties can make a difference, and perhaps grow in popularity such that someday a third party could be viable at the level of president.

[polly_mer]

I really sympathize with your position, Polly, but I'm not wrong about throwing away your vote. Math sucks but it's real.

And if no one ever votes for anything different, then we'll never get anything different.

Mahagonny is right about the frustration of dealing with people who can explain in great detail what's wrong with a current system, express concern about those wrongs, and yet don't put enough energy into even small steps to fix the parts of the system we know can be different.

There's nothing preventing the US from having several political parties that span a much wider portion of human experience.  But we don't.  Instead, we act as though somewhat different priorities while preserving the same system is the same as being truly diverse.

[fast_and_bulbous]

I agree (and edited my original post).

You have to start at the smaller elections and work your way up, not just put all the chips on 24 red every presidential election. That will always be a losing strategy.

[secundem_artem]

Friend - Eric Swalwell/Tim Ryan/Seth Moulton just withdrew.

Me:  You mean THE Eric Swalwell/Tim Ryan/Seth Moulton?

Trump can't win this election, but the Democrats can certainly set themselves up to lose it. 

[mahagonny]

Pat Paulsen (Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, for the tots who are reading) explained and defended the right of Americans to vote for the lesser of two evils and maybe how important it is to keep a democracy running. Something like this:

"Recent polling shows many Americans vote negatively. That is, they vote for the candidate they are least afraid of or dislike less than his opponent. We feel that President Nixton, by withdrawing his candidacy, is doing a disservice to these voters."

[Anselm]

i wish to go on record as endorsing Vermin Supreme for president in 2020.

[Diogenes]

I always vote for whom I want to win because I don't believe in "you only really have two choices on this big slate of candidates, so vote for the lesser evil".

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean it isn't true. That's the way the system work in the US. Pretending it isn't so is (literally) throwing your vote away. But you get the benefit of feeling better about yourself, so there is that.

It's a lousy system but it's the system we have. Irrelevant third parties use presidential elections as fundraising events, no more, as far as I can see.

But at least President Gary Johnson has really turned things around for the US!

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7NeRiNefO0

[spork]

Compared to many European democracies, the USA really has only one party, of the center-right, with two wings. Policy-wise the Republican and Democratic parties are not that different.

Full confession: I voted for Ross Perot. I liked his 30-minute chart presentations.

[mamselle]

I like the title of this one:

   https://www.liberation.fr/planete/2019/08/26/macron-trump-g7-et-match_1747483

M.

[nebo113]

PollyMer...."have my fingers crossed for a few democratic candidates who would be good enough if they get that far.

Would you share the names of these candidates?

[nebo113]

I agree (and edited my original post).

You have to start at the smaller elections and work your way up, not just put all the chips on 24 red every presidential election. That will always be a losing strategy.

I definitely agree with starting small.  I live in a blood red area of a purple/blue state, and am extremely frustrated with those in my area who are very vocal on a national level, but completely ignore local and state candidates.

[mahagonny]

Compared to many European democracies, the USA really has only one party, of the center-right, with two wings. Policy-wise the Republican and Democratic parties are not that different.

Full confession: I voted for Ross Perot. I liked his 30-minute chart presentations.

They're different on union labor law, court appointees and abortion. You're right, they are the same deal in most ways. But what would happen if unions donated to both parties just to cover the bases? As an adjunct I happen to have experienced being shut out of a faculty union by liberal democrats. 'Pro union' and 'pro labor' are not synonymous.